SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 6, 2021
Taylor Greene speaks to the House: How do we the people come to believe crazy things?
On a somewhat simpler level, how do we humans come to believe things which are bogus, false, wrong?
Regarding belief in things which are basically crazy, we've seen several attempts, this past week, to interview people who once believed in QAnon.
On Monday night, Don Lemon interviewed a disillusioned former Sanders supporter who came to believe in QAnon. Two days earlier, the New York Times had reported an interview with this same person, exploring how she came to believe in QAnon's crazy claims.
To our ear, this person sounded much better in print. Seeing her on CNN, it seemed to us that her overall mental processes were perhaps a bit fuzzy, even now, after she has renounced her prior crazy beliefs.
On Wednesday night, Chris Cuomo broadcast an interview with a second former QAnon believer. To our ear, this second former believer seemed alert and articulate. She described a very unsophisticated intellectual background, out of which she was able to form belief in claims which might strike others as crazy.
We've now read a third account of how a person came to believe QAnon's crazy claims. That account was offered by Marjorie Taylor Greene, speaking on the floor of the House on Thursday.
For the record, Greene has said, or has seemed to say, a lot of crazy things. She has also done some inexcusable things, seeming to encourage violence against pols with whom she disagrees.
In her occasional tendency to revel in violence, Greene makes it seem that she might fit in better in Hollywood than in the halls of Congress. Or she might fit in at the New York Times, authoring weird endorsements of paeans to slaughter like the trio of John Wick films, the sleazy Keanu Reeve vehicles.
Why are actors willing to star in such films? We have no idea. Nor do we know why upper-end film critics are willing to shower Reeves with praise for having chosen to do so.
At any rate, we thought Greene's speech to the House was well worth reviewing. First, though, let's get clear on one point:
We the people often believe things which aren't true, even here in the streets of Our Town!
Here in Our Town, to cite one example, we all believe that women are paid 78 cents on the dollar as compared to men for doing "the exact same work." We believe this because various people we've come to trust keep repeating the claim to us, even though they almost surely know that the claim is flatly false or is, at best, grossly misleading.
People we trust tell us these things. When they do, we don't know that we're being misled. Along the way, we may thrill to presentations like this, without being struck by the way the journalist, a person we trust, has perhaps behaved in the past:
MAJOR COLUMNIST (2/6/21): A clear indication that Marjorie Taylor Greene was more than a dabbler in QAnon was her 2018 endorsement of “Frazzledrip,” one of the most grotesque tendrils of the movement’s mythology. You “have to go down a number of rabbit holes to get that far,” said Mike Rothschild, whose book about QAnon, “The Storm Is Upon Us,” comes out later this year.
The lurid fantasy of Frazzledrip refers to an imaginary video said to show Hillary Clinton and her former aide, Huma Abedin, assaulting and disfiguring a young girl, and drinking her blood. It holds that several cops saw the video, and Clinton had them killed.
We'd never heard of Frazzledrip until this very morning. The journalist who describes it today goes on to offer this assessment:
"Contemplating Frazzledrip, it occurred to me that QAnon is the obscene apotheosis of three decades of Clinton demonization."
QAnon isn't restricted to "Clinton demonization," but that statement by that journalist is basically accurate. That said, we couldn't help thinking of the way that journalist rolled over and died during the years of Clinton demonization—specifically, when the journalist failed to blow the whistle on the lunatic report about Uranium One in the New York Times.
That stupid, amazingly lengthy report appeared on the Times' front page on April 24, 2015. That evening, the journalist of whom we speak joined Chris Hayes in failing to say how crazy/stupid it was—in failing to stand up to this example of the rolling demonization which had been underway for several decades at that point.
They even called it a "bombshell report." Truly, that's what happened.
In fairness, there's a happy ending to the story—the journalist ended up with a job as a columnist at the New York Times! She ended up with one of the most coveted jobs in all of upper-end journalism.
Also, Donald J. Trump ended up in the White House. But when spectacular jobs at good pay hanf in the balance, we may have to take the disastrous along with the good.
We in Our Town have been treated this way by our "thought leaders" for decades. At various times, we may come to believe things which are false. We may trust the wrong people.
The two people interviewed for CNN described the process by which they came to believe in the general QAnon tale. On Thursday, Rep. Greene told a third version of that story.
We thought her account was quite instructive. Eventually, we'll call your attention to something she told the House which was plainly wrong.
First, though, a small confession:
We'll admit it! This morning, we read the full text of Greene's remarks, thanks to the people at Rev. In the earlier parts of Greene's remarks, we found ourselves thinking of Plato's Seventh Letter.
In that document, Plato described the process by which, as a young man first encountering the workings of politics in Athens, he "was disgusted and withdrew from the wickedness of the times."
We'll admit it! We thought of the narrative arc of that famous document as Greene's remarks began:
GREENE (2/4/21): What you need to know about me is I’m a very regular American, just like the people I represent in my district. And most people across the country, I never, ever considered to run for Congress or even get involved in politics.
As a matter of fact, I wasn’t a political person until I found a candidate that I really liked, and his name is Donald J. Trump when he ran for president. To me, he was someone I could relate to, someone that I enjoyed his plain talk, not the offensive things, but just the way he talked normally. And I thought, “Finally, maybe this is someone that will do something about the things that deeply bother me.”
So when we elected President Trump, and then I started seeing things in the news that didn’t make sense to me, like Russian collusion, which are conspiracy theories also, and have been proven so, these things bothered me deeply, and I realized just watching CNN or Fox News, I may not find the truth.
Frankly, we confess. To our ear, the way that passage tracks basic aspects of Plato's text is almost uncanny. For what it'd worth, we agree with that statement about CNN and Fox.
Along the way, Greene listed the basic concerns which lie at the heart of her politics. We were struck by how much of her statement involved religious belief, and especially opposition to abortion:
GREENE: Here’s what I can tell you. I am beyond grateful for this opportunity and I’ll tell you why. I believe in God with all my heart and I’m so grateful to be humbled, to be reminded that I’m a sinner and that Jesus died on the cross to forgive me for my sins. And this is something that I absolutely rejoice in today to tell you all, and I think it’s important for all of us to remember none of us are perfect, none of us are. And none of us can even come close to earning our way into heaven just by our acts and our works, but it’s only through the grace of God.
And this is why I will tell you as a member of this Congress, the 117th Congress, I am a passionate, I’m a competitor, I’m a fighter. I will work with you for good things for the people of this country but the things I will not stand for is abortion. I think it’s the worst thing this country has ever committed. And if we’re to say in God we trust, how do we murder God’s creation in the womb?
For ourselves, we don't share Greene's religious views. In the policy sphere, we don't share her views on abortion. (We also aren't offended by the fact that she, along with many other people, holds these basic views.)
For the most part, we don't share other of Greene's political views. That said, here's an early part of her speech, the part we edited out above. We agree with several of her statements here:
GREENE: ...And I thought, “Finally, maybe this is someone that will do something about the things that deeply bother me.”
Like the fact that we’re so deeply in debt, that our country has murdered over 62 million people in the womb. The fact that our borders are open and some of my friends have had their children murdered by illegal aliens, or perhaps that maybe we can stop sending our sons and daughters to fight in foreign wars and be used as the world’s police, basically. Or maybe that our government would stand up for our American businesses and our American jobs and make the American people and the American taxpayers their focus. These are the things that I care about deeply.
At one time, not long ago, it was us liberals, right here in Our Town, who were railing, rightly or wrongly, against the decision to keep "sending our sons and daughters to fight in foreign wars."
We'd also like to see the government "make the American people and the American taxpayers their focus" as opposed, let's say, to American high-end earners and American corporate interests. Mainly, though, we'd agree with this assessment:
"I realized just watching CNN or Fox News, I may not find the truth."
Here in Our Town, we already know that about Fox News. Concerning CNN and MSNBC (and the New York Times), quite possibly not so much.
Like the two people interviewed on CNN, Greene described the process by which she came to believe in QAnon. All three of these people described the same new, paradigm-shattering process. Once again, here's the way Greene described it:
"And so, what I did is I started looking up things on the Internet, asking questions, like most people do every day, use Google. And I stumbled across something and this was at the end of 2017 called QAnon."
Like the two people interviewed on CNN, Greene began looking things up for herself! Before long, all three of these people were believing the craziest things in the world, in much the way we in Our Town believe the things Rachel tells us.
How do people come to believe the craziest things in the world? The three people we're discussing here present quite different profiles:
Greene could probably be classified as a highly religious Christian conservative. One of the CNN subjects was a former Sanders supporter. The other had been raised as a Republican, but at the age of 27, had apparently never been involved in politics at all.
All three began to look things up for themselves, on the Internet and through social media. That's where the trouble began.
Not all that long ago, the Internet didn't exist. There was no social media. It was hard to encounter crazy ideas—and if you never encounter crazy ideas, your human discernment won't be tested by any such crazy ideas.
It's all different today. In the basic realm of human discernment, we're facing a brand new, daunting challenge—a challenge driven by the Internet, by social media, by talk radio and by "cable news."
We think Greene's speech is worth reading. It may differ in some ways from the excerpts to which you're being exposed. Quoting Greene again, "big media companies can take teeny tiny pieces of words that I’ve said, that you have said, any of us, and can portray us and to someone that we’re not, and that is wrong."
Of course, we humans can also portray ourselves in ways which may not be accurate. Here's the largest misstatement in what Greene said to the House:
GREENE: The problem with that is though, is I was allowed to believe things that weren’t true and I would ask questions about them and talk about them. And that is absolutely what I regret, because if it weren’t for the Facebook posts and comments that I liked in 2018, I wouldn’t be standing here today and you couldn’t point a finger and accuse me of anything wrong.
I decided to run for Congress because I wanted to help our country, I want Americans to have our American dream. I want to protect our freedoms. This is what I ran for Congress on. I never once said during my entire campaign, QAnon. I never once said any of the things that I am being accused of today during my campaign. I never said any of these things since I have been elected for Congress. These were words of the past and these things do not represent me. They do not represent my district and they do not represent my values.
Congressional representative, please! Actually, it was while Greene was running for Congress last fall that she posted the photo of herself with the AR-15—the photo in which she seemed perhaps to be threatening three sitting members of Congress.
In running that ad, and on other occasions, Greene betrayed a tendency to mix her belief in crazy things with some very poor judgment about intimations of violence.
Such intimations are fine in Hollywood, where they help boost profits, or at the New York Times, where heralded critics cheer such intimations on.
The posting of that Facebook photo represented very poor judgment in the realm of politics. Given the scattershot criticisms directed at Greene for her many ridiculous statements, there's no way to assess her possible thoughts on that particular matter.
We humans believe the darnedest things, now more than so than ever. Crazy belief is everywhere now. Sometimes, crazy belief links up with violence, and very bad conduct may follow.
Given our species-wide lack of perfect discernment, we humans often believe things which are crazy or false.
Greene has asserted a boatload of crazy beliefs. Does she also have a violent streak floating around in her noggin?
"How do we the people come to believe crazy things? "ReplyDelete
By believing that "anything is possible" and thus that it is OK to doubt facts conveyed by legitimate journalists, scientific studies and experts when they are talking about their fields of expertise. If anything is possible then the conspiracy theories and crazy ideas of crackpots can be believed because, hey, they might be right!
When people lose their critical faculty by suspending it, because anything is possible, then aliens could live among us, hey, anything is possible, right. And a nice old grandma like Hillary could be a pedophile, despite working to help women and children her whole career, because anything is possible.
Somerby has helped along the crazy here, with his nitpicks to discredit solid reporting and his pseudo-philosophical sophistry and absolute levels of proof being necessary to challenge lies and the lying liars who tell them, including Somerby.
If anyone ought to know why people believe crazy things, it is Somerby, because he has been helping to make that happen.
Taylor Greene doesn't test my inclination to loathe others, Somerby does.
'If anyone ought to know why people believe crazy things, it is Somerby, because he has been helping to make that happen.'Delete
Of course, since Somerby is a Trumptard (now in exile).
'Such intimations are fine in Hollywood, where they help boost profits, or at the New York Times, where heralded critics cheer such intimations on'ReplyDelete
Somerby seems incapable of distinguishing between fact and fiction, and between violence in movies (or even critics praising movies that might be violent), and those who encourage violence in real life.
Several years back, he defended Zimmerman, then wrote dozens of columns defending Roy Moore and around 1 year back, he was defending Ron Johnson. Now he gallantly defends MTG by pointing to 1-2 views of hers and drawing a bogus comparison with NYT critics.
As usual, Somerby is a Trumptard. I suspect he's disappointed that Trump lost, because he wants to spend the rest of his miserable life talking about 2000.
Somerby's conversion is complete. He is now blaming Hollywood for making violent films, after praising "A Promising Young Woman," a film about violent revenge for sexual assault. And why target Keanu Reeves, one of the least offensive actors in that regard?Delete
This pretense at morality, in which Somerby abhors the kind of violence porn enjoyed mostly by men, pretending that it is Hollywood who invented it, while no doubt planning to watch the Super Bowl tomorrow, echoes conservative memes and hypocrisies.
Greene's encouragement of violence against left-wing politicians is unforgiveable because it is real-world and because Trump has an army willing to enact such violence, as demonstrated on Jan 6.
Don't forget that Somerby tentatively excused Kyle Rittenhouse too.
"Seeing her on CNN, it seemed to us that her overall mental processes were perhaps a bit fuzzy"ReplyDelete
Of course they were -- she was a Q-Anon believer. And before that, she accepted Bernie's pie in the sky. So did Somerby. Anything is possible, right, even a socialist revolution in the USA! If you give in to wishful thinking, you suspend your contact with reality and open the door to even worse crazy beliefs. Bernie and Trump were fellow travelers against Hillary. It is no sign of clear thinking that someone started out believing Bernie's slurs against Hillary, his cries of victimization by the Dems, his unrealistic promises (with no Senate accomplishments to back them up), accepting help from Russia and NRA. Crazy beliefs didn't come out of nowhere, they are home grown.
Somerby should forget about these interviews with others and just tell us all here how HE himself came to abandon his liberal beliefs and step into Trump's fantasy world.
"It was hard to encounter crazy ideas—and if you never encounter crazy ideas, your human discernment won't be tested by any such crazy ideas."ReplyDelete
This is actually untrue. Anyone can encounter some pretty crazy ideas in church (as Bill Maher pointed out yesterday). And there has always been crazy on the radio and TV (pre-social media). Father Coughlin, for example. Limbaugh was hardly the first nut-job encouraging fascist and right-wing crazy on the radio. Dr. Laura was a nut-job too, telling women to give up their jobs because they were ruining their kids by working, not to pursue education, to treat their husbands like masters. Lots of crazy on the radio and you didn't have to look hard to find it.
Yes, crazy ideas were abundant before the internet. I will only mention three since it would take too long to list them all. Here in the USA, we have always had the crazy idea that any religious idea, no matter how crazy, must be respected. There was the idea that it was good that the government should segregate Black people. We had whole nations of people who started wars because they had the crazy idea that they were the master race. That crazy idea led to 70 million killed in WW2.Delete
"Such intimations [of violence] are fine in Hollywood, where they help boost profits, or at the New York Times, where heralded critics cheer such intimations on."ReplyDelete
Or here at Daily Howler, where Somerby cheered them on.
The point of an AR-15 is that you don't have to have much of a violent streak to do a lot of damage with it.ReplyDelete
Just as vaping is made easier by pleasant flavors and alcohol drinks are mixed with sweet tastes to encourage kids to drink them, guns have gotten easier to fire over time (less recoil, less trigger pressure needed, more bullets with a single trigger pull, less need to aim). The fine line between posturing with weapons for the thrill of it, and using guns for that thrill, has become way too easy to cross. Kids can do it, women can dress in sexy outfits and pose with cool weapons, swaggering in public with guns has become a weekend pleasure.
But Somerby blames Hollywood, not the gun industry, supported by politicians like Greene, Boebert, Gohmert, and Bernie. Greene was harassing anti-gun activists in 2017 and claiming that Sandy Hook never happened. Somerby doesn't mention that crazy. He blames Hollywood.
"How much are you inclined to loathe others?"ReplyDelete
How many of the recent shootings have been liberals targeting conservatives? How many have been conservatives targeting liberals? Domestic terrorism is coming predominantly from the right. This is not a 'both sides' issue, not matter how hard the right works to convince us that antifa is a thing.
Somerby needs to address these questions to the right, not to liberals. Hate groups are right-wing and they are armed to the teeth and more than willing to shoot those they loathe, to burn churches and shoot up congregations, to drive their cars into crowds, to invade the capitol building and try to disrupt a valid election. We aren't the loathers -- the others are doing that. And no, both sides are not the same.
Somerby has gone from mildly offensive to majorly offensive with this kind of question.
And talking about loathing, is Somerby aware that the left tends to loathe violence (not people)? He forgot to tell us that his time under his pear tree is spent cleaning his rifle, to keep that pesky neighbor from complaining about the leaves that fall into her yard.
Cryptic, but still a good example of misinformation.Delete
Which Somali warlord or Nigerian Boko Haram member should we speak to?Delete
Go find a northern African in the community in which you live, there are many, and ask them about the American left, specifically Obama and Hillary Clinton, and tell them how you feel they "loathe violence". TELL THEM!!! Go find them and tell them about it and see what their reaction is.Delete
They will be glad to tell a privileged, sheltered poor sap like yourself all about the American left and violence.
What a shallow fool to take an accepted moral principle, adopt it as their own, and then accuse others of violating that principle. They probably do this without even being aware of it so privileged, indoctrinated and misinformed they are.Delete
I found one and he told me that he was grateful to have been admitted to the USA by Obama, since Trump shut the door on them when he took office.Delete
You're a total fool.Delete
Right wing American fascists can go piss up a ropeDelete
Finding a northern African in my community is considerably more difficult than finding a right wing racist toll. You know, the type who would refer to their fellow countrymen as northern Africans.Delete
"...QAnon's crazy claims"ReplyDelete
Yeah, sure, dear Bob: people who claim the liberal-hitlerian elite is utterly corrupt are crazy.
Your zombie cult's deranged hitlerian talking points, on the other hand, are merely 'not entirely convincing'.
"Why are actors willing to star in such films? We have no idea. Nor do we know why upper-end film critics are willing to shower Reeves with praise for having chosen to do so. "
Oh, dear. Cute, you're so cute, dear Bob. Ever heard of the thing called "money"?
Once again: tl;dr.
Do you believe in QAnon's claims?Delete
'Believing in' things, dear dembot, is what you brain-dead shape-shifting alien reptilians do.Delete
I will take that as a “yes.”Delete
They've allowed you to believe things that aren't true.
One thing that causes people to believe crazy things is extreme group identification, such as nationalism or partisanship. When group loyalty reaches a high enough level, people will believe almost anything bad about members of the other group. A sure-fire way to stoke this kind of group passion is racism, which is probably largely instinctive. Another is religion, which by its nature is based on crazy beliefs (not those of your religion - those of the other religions). It is the Republican tribe which has been deliberately exploiting race and religion to divide people - to get white lower-income people to vote on their side to support plutocratic economics. This has been a very large difference between the two sides in the US for over 50 years. If the liberal side is more objective, as Somerby claims to want, this will not make much impression on people susceptible to the racist/religious approach.ReplyDelete
“How do we the people come to believe crazy things?”ReplyDelete
Greene sounds like a sociopath, the word Somerby applied to Trump. Somerby never asked how Trump cane to believe crazy things; he just pronounced him crazy.
Greene is able to sound semi-reasonable when she wants to, when she wants to distract idiots like Somerby from the vile, violent things about Democrats she has said.
That is the mark of a sociopath.
So Somerby’s question is irrelevant at best: “How much are you inclined to loathe others?”
The question isn’t one of loathing; it’s a question of how a democracy can tolerate views like Greene’s. It really cannot, and therefore my personal feelings about Greene don’t matter.
I do loathe those who prey on others. One is Alex Jones -- NPR has been running a show about the falsity of his origin story and his rise as a purveyor of crazy beliefs. Two things are clear about Jones:ReplyDelete
1. He has made a lot of money off of those who follow him.
2. He has done a lot of harm to those who are the focus of his theories. Examples from the NPR show include Chobani (who he said was importing Muslim rapists who were spreading tuberculosis, as if rape weren't bad enough), and the families of those attacked in school shootings, who are harassed online and in real life as "crisis actors" by Jones followers. In addition to their grief, several have had to move to avoid stalkers.
Greene's actions were neither victimless nor harmless and she has used her crazy statements to fundraise. Like all Republicans, her current censure will be used to raise money to combat attempts to silence her and prevent her from revealing the crazy "truth", just as Trump has quietly pocketed the money he raised while trying to stop the steal, as they call it. There are millions at stake.
So, this isn't just quaint craziness, it is big business, conducted by conservatives who clearly have no morals about how they get cash from the unwary.
And while we're at it, where does Somerby get his funding for this blog?
Trump is still making money off Q-Anon:Delete
"According to a report from Forbes, the Trump International Hotel in Washington DC has massively increased rates on the dates QAnon believers are claiming Donald Trump will oust President Joe Biden and once again assume control on the U.S. Government."
"Given our species-wide lack of perfect discernment, we humans often believe things which are crazy or false. "ReplyDelete
That doesn't give anyone an excuse to believe things that are super crazy and incredibly false.
Of course we function under conditions of uncertainty and everything we experience is filtered through our senses and constructed by our minds, but that doesn't mean there are no ways of determining what is real, true, likely. People who are not good at doing that, did not live very long in the past, and today will not thrive or succeed in life. Reality punishes those who do not make a reasonable approximation to its demands.
Somerby wants us to think that because we function with limitations, anything can be true. That is a huge falsehood. No philosopher ever said that and no one with half a brain thinks it. He is conning the rubes here as much as Trump does, or Greene, or anyone else who wants to manipulate people for their own gain.
Somerby's ideas about reality-testing are as crazy as Greene's. Don't fall for his pretend version of critical thinking. He is selling some car himself, but the price is way too high.
I think Bob's comments about how people can get sucked into these kind of crazy beliefs are very astute, however shouldn't someone who gets elected to Congress be capable enough not to? We have to take it at face value that Greene no longer holds these beliefs; does Bob believe that Trump is no longer a birther just because he gave a single perfunctory statement that he didn't any more? Some of QAnon's claims are so wild and outrageous I find it hard to see how anyone could ever believe them. They aren't much different from the wild and outrageous beliefs many abortion rights opponents hold about abortion providers and feminists.ReplyDelete
Suggesting that liberals have biases that are reinforced by their media is mundane. Comparing MSNBC personalities to those propagating bizarre conspiracy theories is ridiculous. If “we” are prone to believing things that are crazy or false, then go ahead, Bob, and define “we”. It most certainly is a set that includes Somerby by definition. It’s remarkable how much effort is spent by Bob lambasting the media while treading ever so softly in regard to Rupert Murdoch’s propaganda machine. I guess Comedy Central has that adequately covered. I agree that the mainstream press has too often bitten the hook in smearing liberal politicians but that hook was baited by Fox invariably. So Bob chooses to lambaste Rachel Maddow at every opportunity. Makes perfect sense.ReplyDelete
“I was allowed to believe things that weren’t true”ReplyDelete
So much for the party of personal responsibility.
Referring back to something Somerby was “wondering” about one day after the insurrection:ReplyDelete
“We also heard that it's the House of Representatives, not the White House, which is in charge of that police force [the Capitol Police].
Is that statement accurate? We don't know that either!”
All you had to do to find out the answer was spend three minutes on google and check the Capitol Police website. The oversight belongs to the House and the Senate. (I answered his question in a comment.)
Here is how Somerby’s “innocent” question is being weaponized:
“As I've noted repeatedly on my blog, the GOP decided to weaponize this slander weeks ago: that Pelosi personally runs the Capitol Police (oversight is shared with the Senate, which the GOP ran on 1/6) and that she knew a riot was coming and didn't tell Rs.”
Somerby couldn’t even be bothered to answer his own bone simple question, and thus repeats right wing talking points without seeming to. He’s just “asking questions.”
Nothing worse for the body than deceiving yourselfReplyDelete
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