While we're at it, what is a lie?

THURSDAY, AUGUST 17, 2023

We're constantly astounded: We'll admit that we constantly find the gap in logic surprising. Consider the headline which appeared on this "news analysis" piece from yesterday's New York Times:

After Years of Lies, Election Deniers Face Something New: Consequence

That's the way the headline read on page A12 of print editions. Online, the headline is a bit pithier:

After Years of Spreading Lies, Election Deniers Face Consequences

The analysis piece was written by Nick Corasaniti. According to that pithy headline, a certain group of election deniers have been "spreading lies" for years.

Without any question, the people in question have spread a welter of unsupported claims about the 2020 election. Many of those unsupported claims have seemed to be borderline crazy.

That said, have these people been spreading lies? Pithier headline included, Corasaniti's analysis piece actually starts like this:

After Years of Spreading Lies, Election Deniers Face Consequences

For two and a half years, most of Donald J. Trump’s allies in the sprawling effort to overturn the 2020 election escaped consequences, continuing to try to undermine President Biden’s legitimacy by spreading false claims about voting machines, mail ballots and rigged elections.

Now the legal repercussions are arriving.

The headline says that Trump's allies have been spreading "lies." The text of the piece says that they've been spreading "false claims." 

Indeed, Corasaniti never uses the pleasing terms "lie" or "lies" at any point in his piece. Presumably, some editor came along and chose the more exciting term for use in the article's headline.

Ho ahead—check it out! There is no reference to "lies" or to "lying" at any point in Corasaniti's piece.

Corasaniti refers to "false claims" in paragraph 1. He refers to "false election claims" a bit later, then to "baseless election claims."

Corasaniti never says that the Trumpsters in question have been telling lies or lying. He also never says they haven't been telling lies. 

He didn't attempt to make that assessment. Then, some headline-writing editor apparently came along.

Over the course of the past twenty years, this widespread conflation of "lies" and "false statements" has been a source of constant amazement for us. Just today, we were struck by this letter in the Times—by this letter from a political science professor at the University of Chicago, no less:

To the Editor:

Wait a minute now. Since when does a liar’s sincere belief in his own lies excuse him from committing a crime?

There are legal and illegal ways to pursue a grievance. The question is not whether the accused sincerely believes he was wronged but whether he was able to distinguish right actions from wrong ones.

Donald Trump chose legitimate challenges to the outcome of the 2020 election through ballot challenges and recounts. But at every turn, despite the expert opinion of many of his own advisers and loss after loss in the courts, Mr. Trump went further and pursued illegal means of reversing the vote.

If after November 2020 he was not a reasonable person and unable to tell right from wrong, he should try his luck with an insanity defense.

That sort of thing always astounds us. According to traditional logic and definitions, if some person "has a sincere belief in his own statements," then the statements in questions aren't lies.

If the statements in question are false, that means that the statements in question are misstatements, errors, falsehoods. Indeed, the statements may be so crazily wrong as to seem "delusional."

That doesn't mean that the statements in question are lies! For decades now, we've been amazed to see the way this elementary point of logic escapes us and them the people from our major professors on down.

Corasaniti referred to "false claims." In the headline, the false claims were turned into "lies."

Tomorrow, we'll continue with a question which continues to float around: Is it possible that the election deniers in question are so crazy that they believe their own crazy claims?

Is it possible that Donald J. Trump may actually be that crazy? Again and again, people who know the gentleman say that yes, he actually is. 

The professor ends his letter today with a jibe about mental illness. Adhering to the rules of their trade, our upper-end journalists refuse to consult with appropriate medical experts.

"What is truth?" Pontius Pilate once said. Also, in a related matter, what the Sam Hill is a "lie?"


24 comments:

  1. Is it possible Trump is crazy enough to make these claims when he does not really believe them? As ALL evidence all but screams?
    Of course. Is it possible anyone could advance the malarkey Bob is pimping on this subject without possessing total indifference to the people Trump has damaged and the Country he tried to steal?
    Not likely.

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    1. That's weird. You agree with what Somerby says and then call it malarkey.

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    2. Somerby is saying Trump does not really believe his own nonsense?

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  2. “Sincere belief in a statement” is not knowable and therefore is not used as a criterion in and of itself; Somerby is aware of this, he is just playing dumb for his right wing rubes.

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    1. 4:54,

      Not sure what you mean by 'criterion in and of itself' but whether a defendant sincerely believed the election was stolen is likely to be relevant in upcoming trials, if not under the law, then in the minds of jurors, and judges also to the extent they have discretion in sentencing.

      And in non-judicial contexts, we certainly think very differently of someone who unknowingly makes a false claim vs. someone who does so knowingly (lies).

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    2. 5:19: Do you think Trump will take the stand to testify under oath about his “belief?” Otherwise, how is the jury supposed to weigh that?

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    3. I'm a right wing rube, not a seer.

      But if he doesn't testify, the jury will most likely make inferences from his actions, his contemporaneous statements, opinions of other witnesses who interacted with Trump at that time, probably also their impressions of Trump during the trial.

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    4. Fact checkers have amassed a list of thousands of false statements by Trump. This is what you would call context. If the police recover thousands of wallets at the home of a thief and his defense lawyer argues that the thief truly believed one of them was his own, how should that play out? Somerby can take that list of lies by Trump and, one by one, defend each with the caveat that Trump stated each in good faith. It is laughable.

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    5. You don't need a crystal ball to predict Donald J Chickenshit will never sit his fat corrupt lying ass in the witness chair.

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    6. 5:19 none of us can mind read, thus we use context in determining whether someone lied - both in court and out of court; furthermore, “sincere belief” is not a defense for Trump’s criminal acts.

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  3. The common sense phrase "spread lies" only needs to prove that at one point someone believed it was a lie not that everybody did.

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  4. “he should try his luck with an insanity defense.”

    He is not doing that. Why not, Bob?

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    1. Trump’s freakish narcissism might be diagnosed as a mental disorder, but insanity defenses seem to generally relate to people who become irrational to the point where they don’t understand or can’t control what they are doing. That’s a stretch for someone defending Trump.

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  5. Bob’s trying to pass of his version of Rudy: the truth isn’t true.

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  6. Since when is it a crime to lie? Trump is a champion liar, of course, but many politicians of both parties routinely lie. Adam Schiff was censured for a particularly heinous lie: As chairman of the Intelligence Committee he lied about classified information. The public couldn't know that he was lying, since what he was discussing was secret at the time.

    I don't like all the lying, but lying has never been a criminal offense.

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    1. The new era of political acrimony resulted and in the Impeachment of Bill Clinton, for the “high crime” of purgury of the most benign possible variety. There are many kinds of misrepresentation, obviously, that send people to jail.
      The ease with which David says things that are obviously not true signals the sad state we are in.

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    2. @7:30 pm - direct from Gateway Pundit.

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    3. David in Cal,

      What are your news sources? Has someone told you Trump is being indicted for "lying", absent any context in which the lying took place?

      If so, you might want to consider getting news from other places that will tell you the truth.

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    4. David does seem to scan around the nether regions of right media for desperate factoids. Fox doesn’t seem to get the job done these days. Enjoy Newsmax while you can, David. Their lawsuits are coming up….

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    5. Let's just agree that anyone who says the Republican Party isn't an amoral dumpster fire is a liar.

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    6. Why was Schiff censured, David? A heinous lie, or because he lead the impeachment of Donald J Chickenshit, and McCarthy was taking instructions from the pile of pigshit in Mara-lago?

      "You honor me with your enmity. You flatter me with this falsehood. You, who are the authors of a big lie about the last election, must condemn the truth tellers and I stand proudly before you," Schiff said on the House floor.

      "I led the first impeachment of Donald Trump, for one of the most egregious presidential abuses of power in our history, and I led a trial which resulted in the first bipartisan vote to remove a president in history," he said.

      "I would do so again. I warned that if Trump was not held accountable, he would go on to try to cheat in even worse ways in the next election, and he did, inciting a violent attack on this very Capitol," Schiff added, referencing the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol.

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    7. There may be other differences, but one difference between Einstein and David is that Einstein married his cousin, whereas David lies about who is cousin is.

      Of course David wants reassurance that lying isn’t necessarily a crime.

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  7. There's no excuse. Lying is lying, especially in regard to criminal acts.

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  8. Maybe they believe it when they say Republican voters care about something other than bigotry and white supremacy.
    Just kidding. No one is that clueless. They're lying.

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