FRIDAY, OCTOBER 20, 2023
The lives of many children: "This war, this terrible war."
So read headline on a column in the Missouri Ruralist.
The date was August 1917. The column was written in reaction to the United States' entry into the so-called "Great War."
In this morning's New York Times, Charles Blow has reached a judgment about the world's latest onrushing war. He has judged both sides to be at fault. We don't necessarily agree with him, but this is the way he begins:
BLOW (10/20/23): The terrorist attack by Hamas against Israelis—the worst massacre of Jewish people since the Holocaust—was horrid, barbaric and inexcusable. Israel has a right to defend itself and pursue the perpetrators.
What is happening to innocent citizens of Gaza, and what is likely to happen to them as the war between Israel and Hamas continues—evacuation orders are imposed, electricity and basic supplies are cut off—is also horrid and not a justifiable response to the terrorist attacks.
Israel has a right to respond, but not in this way, Blow says. As a starting point, we'd only say this:
This war, this terrible war.
We often disagree with Blow's assessments. In this case, we tend to agree with the assessment he reaches here:
BLOW: Most Americans assess this conflict the way they do many others: at arm’s length and an ocean away. And they do so through the prism of their own sense of fairness and justice.
In this case, there is something of a partisan and generational schism, with some progressive Democrats and younger Americans more likely to express a greater degree of sympathy for the Palestinian people or at least less reflexive support for Israel, according to polls.
Many of those who share this view are part of what Elizabeth Alexander, a writer, poet and scholar and the president of the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation, has called the Trayvon generation—young people who have come of age in the decade since the killing of Trayvon Martin in 2012. It’s a generation that has become highly attuned to intersectionality, the history and current expressions of various forms of oppression, and the ways in which colonialism, imperialism and capitalism undermine the concepts of equality and justice.
And just because the country as a whole seems to have turned the page on its fleeting interest, circa 2020, in the movement born of this generation of Americans, that doesn’t mean the impulses and understandings of members of this generation simply evaporate. Social and racial justice is still their compass. It is a part of who they are and how they think. And it is with that compass that many of them evaluate the broader dispute over Israel’s control of the occupied territories and the immediate conflict between Israel and Hamas.
I think it would be a great mistake to bemoan the position taken by many of these young people—the seekers of context, not the defenders of terrorism, of course—rather than seek to understand it.
We don't think this is about Trayvon Martin or the Trayvon generation. It's also true that young people can say the darndest things.
That said, we agree with Blow's general advice. Some of those young people may bring types of knowledge to the discussion which go beyond the types of knowledge their self-assured elders possess.
Instead of telling them to shut up, some of those older hedge fund types should possibly ask themselves if there is something they could learn from those younger people—something which might add to or complicate their own understanding of the matter at hand.
In Blow's view, most Americans assess this war from a very long distance away. It's also true that many Americans may tend to assess this war on the basis of prior sympathies, including perfectly reasonable prior sympathies in favor of the nation of Israel.
On balance, Americans have fewer ties to the people of Palestine, or to those who live in the Gaza Strip. That said, children are already dying there, as New York magazine's Eric Levitz noted late last week:
LEVITZ (10/13/23): On Friday, Israel ordered 1 million Gazans to evacuate the northern part of the strip, in advance of an Israeli ground invasion set to begin at around 8 p.m. local time. The United Nations has said that it considers such an evacuation logistically impossible. The number of people is too large, the transport infrastructure too damaged, and, thanks to the Israeli siege, the resources necessary to care for 1 million uprooted people are too scarce. In this context, the order looks like a means of excusing the reckless endangerment of the lives of any civilians who remain in place. Israel’s aerial bombardment of Gaza also appears to flout international law’s prohibition of the disproportionate killing of civilians. The Israeli Air Force has dropped more than 6,000 bombs on a stretch of land roughly the size of Queens. Its targets have included hospitals and schools. By its own account, Israel has not been firing “warning strikes” to encourage civilians to exit a given building before incinerating it. As of this writing, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry, Israel’s airstrikes have killed more than 1,799 people, including 583 children. According to the ministry, 60 percent of all the injured are women or children.
That was posted one week ago.
Already, 583 children? We have no idea if that figure was accurate. We offer no assessments concerning international law.
But in many cases, it's easier for us Americans to picture the people who live in Israel as compared to the several million people consigned to life in the Gaza Strip. We may sometimes tend to favor the suffering endured in one place over the suffering endured in the other.
This latest iteration of a long war involves the lives of many "women and children," and even a lot of innocent men. In this country, kids sometimes say the darndest things—and hedge fund owners sometimes insist on remaining defiantly stuck in their ways.
No one has yet found a way to bring this division of peoples to an end. How hard have our stars on blue cable news tried? To what extent does our tribe really care?
This post makes clear that Somerby hates Sydney Powell and all women.
ReplyDeleteHe clearly thinks that men are being neglected in the death counts in favor of women & children. But how are so many more men escaping if they have a duty to protect the weak?
DeleteIf 583 children were killed out of 1799 deaths, it appears that some effort was being made to spare children. Children make up half of the population of Gaza. That means that 33% of those killed were children compared to 50% that would be expected without some measures to protect them.
DeleteBut realize that these sound like made up numbers, or at best estimates. Whoever provided the figures may not have understood how to make them sound plausible -- they just sound like big numbers to most people.
Including Somerby, who says: "Already, 583 children?"
DeleteThat is certainly more than 0 but insisting that a war must have no deaths seems to lead to the conclusion that there should be no wars, which most people would agree with before they start considering the details of the conflicts leading to war.
I consider child deaths and adult deaths to be equally valuable and worth protecting. When I hear someone emphasizing child deaths, I know I am being propagandized, even by Somerby. It is an appeal to emotion. Somerby is at his blatantly manipulative worst when he accuses his readers of not caring about drowned children on the shores of European countries.
"Somerby is at his blatantly manipulative worst when he accuses his readers of not caring about drowned children on the shores of European countries."
DeleteSince you don't bother to cite anything, my guess - and it's only a guess! - about what you're saying is that at some point Somerby said something like we focus more on Trump Trump Jail than on drowned refugee children.
I don't know, since I really don't know what you're referring to, but I doubt Somerby was criticizing his readers for not caring about drowned kids - everybody cares about drowned kids! Instead, I suspect he was critiquing our priorities, as revealed by media attention.
Dogface, do like Cecelia did and use the Search box at the top of the Daily Howler webpage. Put in words that are specific to the quote you are seeking, such as "drowned" and "children" and perhaps immigrant or asylum seeking. You will find the pages where Somerby talked about those dead kids, but then you will have to read it to find where exactly the quotes are.
DeleteOf course he was critiquing our priorities and also claiming that none of us care about those kids, but implying that HE does, even though he has never discussed the crises producing those refugees.
Whatever his excuse for using those kids, he is still doing it to advance his own purposes, not to focus attention on the needs of immigrant kids. And that is definitely manipulative.
If you don't know how to do this kind of search, you don't belong here on this blog. You need to go back to community college and get some skills.
10:15 - Thanks! I really appreciate the help! I went to the Search box, put in “overbearing” and “nimrod,” and your name popped right up!
DeleteBut you didn’t search for drowned children? What’s wrong with you?
DeleteI never went to community college.
DeleteSomeone tell Dr. Emanuel that the kids are alright.
ReplyDeleteha ha but can’t you spell the guy’s name right?
DeleteThat spelling is correct. I am Corby.
DeleteI can’t type either.
DeleteAs the saying goes, I don’t care what they say about me in the paper as long as they spell my name correctly. Seriously, it is a sign of respect.
DeleteThat spelling is correct. I am Mao.
Deletehttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezekiel_Emanuel
“Seriously, it is a sign of respect”
DeleteDon’t chide people continuously, anonymices. We know it’s a pose and anyway, there’s no future in it.
You have no respect. That’s my point. Are you saying you cannot learn?
DeleteAnonymouse 3:12pm, No.
DeleteI’m saying you’re a putz.
Name calling. What would it hurt you to be polite like David?
DeleteAnonymouse 3:16pm, it’s not polite to constantly chide others.
DeleteYou didn’t even bother to look up Emanuel’s name in order to ascertain the correct spelling.
Where’s your respect?
You're right.
DeleteWhat is this dichotomy between hedge fund owners (top 1% in income) and college kids (top 50%)? I expect the fabulously wealthy are mostly isolationists or is Somerby using hedge fund manager as a euphemism for Jews?
ReplyDeletePerhaps well heeled parents of the Trayvon Generation.
DeleteIdiot, they are on opposite sides Somerby says.
DeleteThe parents of the supposedly more balanced Trayvon Generation would be on opposite sides of their offspring.
DeleteAnonymouse 3:14pm:
Delete“Many of those who share this view are part of what Elizabeth Alexander, a writer, poet and scholar and the president of the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation, has called the Trayvon generation—young people who have come of age in the decade since the killing of Trayvon Martin in 2012. It’s a generation that has become highly attuned to intersectionality, the history and current expressions of various forms of oppression, and the ways in which colonialism, imperialism and capitalism undermine the concepts of equality and justice.”
But I doubt that is what Somerby means. For one thing, he could have said so, simply by saying "their parents" or something similar. Even among college students at expensive schools like Harvard (which Somerby also does not mention), the parents are not going to be at the same income level as hedge fund owners. So why say that unless he means something by it?
DeleteI reread and noticed the reference to “kids say darndest things” from yesterday, being countered with hedge fund owners. I googled Dr. Emanuel who was the counter to the students. .
DeleteI think this is what Bob was referencing:
https://www.inquirer.com/business/ezekiel-emanuel-penn-obamacare-ethics-venture-capital-20220411.html?outputType=amp
"Ezekiel Emanuel chairs the department of medical ethics and health policy at the University of Pennsylvania. He started the bioethics department at the National Institutes of Health, helped shape U.S. health-care policy as a senior aide in the Obama administration, served on President Joe Biden’s COVID-19 task force, and advocates for plans to extend medical care for more Americans.
DeleteIt doesn’t say so in his Penn resume, but Emanuel is also a venture capitalist, betting on health-care technology start-ups as a venture partner at Oak HC/FT (Health Care/Financial Technology), based in Connecticut. Oak invests for clients including the Pennsylvania teachers’ pension fund, PSERS."
Somerby doesn't say what he means. That's why we do not know whether he was referencing this or not. But if he was, then this is an underhanded way of criticizing Emanuel, who has every right to do what he wants with his money.
Beyond that, note that Somerby yesterday was criticizing someone who was part of Obama's administration, Biden's covid task force and who wants to expand health care. These are things that right wingers are opposed to, that some even consider part of covid conspiracy theories. So, yesterday when Somerby was opposing the suggestion that kids might benefit from ethics courses, he omitted the info that Emanuel is an enemy of the right wing as well as an advocate of support for Israel.
Why would Somerby leave out all this important information about the people he chooses to target in his essays? It helps me to understand why Somerby made a fuss about an innocuous suggestion. I assumed Somerby was attacking Emanuel for being a professor and academic, not for being an enemy of the right wing who worked for Obama and Biden.
Also, notice the pluralization of Emanuel's views into a group of hedge fund owners. Calling Emanuel a hedge fund owner helps disguise (perhaps deliberately) who Somerby meant, for those on the left, while perhaps this info is floating freely on right wing blogs. It may have been Somerby's dog whistle to his right wing readers. Or perhaps Somerby means something entirely different -- the convoluted nature of this reference and the absence of any other meaning that makes sense, suggests that Somerby was seeking plausible deniability while he did his job for the right by attacking Emanuel and with it Biden's policy on Israel. Shame on Somerby.
Some problems of fact exist in what Somerby wrote. First, a hedge fund is not the same as a venture capital firm. Second, Emanuel is a partner but that doesn't make him an owner. Third, yes, doctors make a lot of money but it seems like a good thing to invest in health technology instead of maximizing wealth in a hedge fund:
"Hedge funds use a variety of investment strategies — such as investing with borrowed money, shorting stocks, or holding concentrated assets. Venture capital, on the other hand, generally focuses on investing in startups with potential for high growth." That means Emanuel is not a hedge fund owner and this is an attempt to discredit him as a greedy uber-capitalist, or Somerby and the right assume their readers won't know the difference.
Thank you for researching this, Cecelia.
In contrast to Emanuel, Icahn was a hedge fund owner. Icahn served as a special adviser to President Trump on regulatory reform until August 18, 2017. Hedge fund owners tend to skew Republican, although financial firms donate to both candidates in every election.
DeleteAnonymouse 6:43pm, you’re welcome, but I merely googled Emanuel.
DeleteBob thinks that Emanuel overreacted to the passion of the students. I do not.
I don’t think hedge fund managers or owners are a particularly beloved group amongst leftists, any more than the people touting the wonders of the 401k and a variety of schemes that would invest social security payments in stocks have been a liberal cohort. Liberals don’t seem to go for the notion of group co-ops for health insurance where people get the same tax deductions for health care as do businesses. I’m not at surprised that Bob might be reluctant as to these sorts of ideas.
However, it is evident that Bob was not calling Emanuel a Shylock. I have/had no doubt about that. Just as I have no doubt that Bob wants universal healthcare.
Your explanation is better than my theory about Shylock, but we shouldn't be left to guess about his intentions like that. Too cryptic leaves too many alternative explanations. Again, thanks for clarifying this.
DeleteAnonymouse 7:58pm, I’ve never seen the slightest indication that Bob would use that sort of pejorative trope. He tends to mock tropes regardless of right or left.
DeleteTropes are good, when deployed judiciously.
DeleteI’m fond of the Magical Negro and the duplicitous preacher.
DeleteI wouldn't have expected Somerby to say any of the racist and sexist things that he has said here over the years. When someone does that, anti-semitism is not a bridge too far.
DeleteIt irks me when Hit-and-Hide Mice drop such casual, drive-by smears.
DeleteLast I heard, cable news stars (red or blue) are not expectedto function as diplomats. The actual diplomatic corps has been working on peace in the Middle East fo 70+ years with incremental progress. We should applaud and encourage their efforts.
ReplyDeleteChristians sought shelter in St Porphyrios Church. Israel bombed it.
ReplyDeleteGod can be cruel, but the Jews are His chosen people.
DeleteOnly an idiot thinks Israel targeted the church.
DeleteOnly an idiot thinks Israel didn’t bomb the church.
DeleteYou imply it was deliberate so we should also assume Hamas deliberately blew up the hospital.
DeleteOnly an idiot doesn’t think Hamas destroyed the hospital.
DeleteThanks for the elevated discourse
DeleteI’m elevated, but that other anonymouse went low.
DeleteThe credible evidence points to Israel as the culprit in bombing the hospital.
DeleteSomerby shows his bias when he fails to remind his readers why the Jews relocated to Palestine in the first place. Some of us remember the film Exodus for example. And other sneak attacks by Arab nations against the fledgling state, all unsuccessful. When you lose a war you do not gain territory.
ReplyDeleteanon, if TDH is showing his bias, then just about everyone here and every pundit or reporter who has discussed what's going on there has also shown their bias. How do you come up with this stuff?
Delete"We had to take Palestine because they were so sneaky trying to take it back"
DeleteAll wars are terrible but this internal conflict in Israel is nothing like WWI. It is histrionic of Somerby to pretend it is by using that quote and WWI to characterize yet another Gaza terrorist attack. Nor is the number of Israelis killed anything like what happened during the Holocaust, despite it being more than usual.
ReplyDeleteIt is a historical oddity that students on college campuses are taking a different position than older people, but it is not relevant to anything happening in response to the conflict. The adults are handling things well. (Another set of children still cannot elect a speaker.) Here is Biden's reaction:
ReplyDelete"The Inflection Point
October 20, 2023 at 5:19 pm EDT By Taegan Goddard
Peter Wehner: “The significance of President Joe Biden’s Oval Office address to the nation last night was signaled in the opening sentence: ‘We’re facing an inflection point in history.'”
“What followed was a speech that may well define Biden’s presidency.”
“The proximate cause for the speech was Biden’s desire to urge Americans to stand with Israel in its war against Hamas and Ukraine in its war against Russia. The president is expected to ask Congress for emergency assistance for the two nations in a $100 billion spending package. But the speech was not primarily about money; it was about America’s teleology, about how Biden sees the role of the United States in a world that is fraying and aflame.”
“Biden used phrases loaded with meaning. America is ‘the arsenal of democracy,’ he said, invoking a phrase from a 1940 speech by Franklin D. Roosevelt. But in case that wasn’t clear enough, Biden said America is ‘the essential nation’ and the ‘indispensable nation.'"
College students may understand what they have heard about Palestinian oppression and colonialism, but they do not understand the historical role of our country in dealing with global conflicts, or our responsibility to other nations and especially our allies. Trump didn't understand that either and did enormous damage to our standing in the world and damaged our ability to deal with situations like this one. Biden is rising to the occasion and doing the right thing.
The students who are expressing various views are not in positions of authority or power. They are young people trying out their voices in a world where they do not have jobs yet, much less any role in dealing with Gaza and its problems. Castigating them makes little sense, but neither does listening to them. Blow is right to urge us to be nice to them. It is also right to protect them from their youth. But it is silly to pretend they have something important to say compared to the wisdom of our national leadership and the expertise of diplomats and military experts (who figure out things like who bombed that hospital and whether it was deliberate).
It is unclear what Somerby is urging because he mainly just repeats Blow's editorial and whispers platitudes again. According to Somerby almost everyone could possibly be right and doesn't necessarily agree or disagree with anyone, so one wonders why bothers saying anything at all.
The movie "Breaker Morant" explored the question of whether one side in a war should obey moral requirements that are ignored by the other side. Hamas has not moral restrictions on killing Israeli civilians. They just kill as many as they. In fact, Hamas seems not to have moral restrictions on killing Palestinians. So, intentionally put materials of war in civilian areas, like the hospital that was bombed last week.
ReplyDeleteShould Israel be obliged to take more care of Palestinian civilians than Palestinians do of Israeli civilians? If your answer is "yes", please provide your reasoning.
Yes, Israel should. Hamas isn’t a part of a national military in the way of our AF, Marines, Army. There has to be difficulties with storing munitions away from the general population in Gaza and there would also be less cohesion, oversight, and discipline as to reigning in extremism in individual battalions.
DeleteCecelia, look at Gaza on the map. It is larger than Gaza city where most of the people live. There are plenty of places to store munitions away from the highly populated areas. There is also greater risk that they would be discovered there, which is perhaps why Hamas didn't do that. Does that make Hamas more responsible for the accident? I think it does. Further, if the policy is to put military resources in places where people will serve as human shields, then Hamas is definitely at fault.
DeleteAnonymouse 7:01pm, I’m sure there would be a greater risk with being picked up by a satellite in a deserted areas. I agree that this does not justify hiding weaponry in populated locations. I’m still not certain that it’s not partly the result of being a guerilla unit,, but frankly, I could never justify our armed forces acting cavalierly towards any civilians.
DeletePart of the problem has been Trump's support for the extremists in the Israeli govt (represented by Netanyahu). They are similar to the most militant in Hamas and seem to have an equivalent disregard for civilian casualties, perhaps related to their religiosity, egging the Israelis on to harsher sanctions and measures against Palestinians and greater retaliation. This exacerbated tensions in Gaza and was perhaps related to the timing of this attack. Now there is a war-coalition govt in Israel and Biden as been working to help moderates respond more temperately, to reduce casualties on both sides. This is one reason why I support Biden in his efforts.
DeleteI appreciate your willingness to discuss this seriously, whether we agree or not.
Anonymouse 7:45pm, I don’t think that you will need to be concerned about Netanyahu much longer.
DeleteUnfortunately (in my book), I don’t see him surviving this security fiasco.
Answering my own question, the key is how one views this struggle. Is Israel contending with a group of criminals? Or, is Israel at war with Hamas. I think it's the latter. Although the Palestinian community didn't elect Hamas, Hamas is their government. In that sense, the Gaza Palestinian community is as responsible for the cowardly attack as the Japanese populace was responsible for Pearl Harbor.
DeleteIn a war, the most important thing is to win it. IMO Israel is facing a mortal threat. They should do whatever it takes so that they can survive as a country.
Those young Americans who support Hamas have a similar view, from the opposite side. In their view, any act by Hamas, no matter have savage, is OK. And, of course, Hamas and Iran agree with this view.
Hamas beat the Palestinian Authority in an election. The Palestinian Authority then went to the West Bank. There hasn't been another election since then, but don't say they weren't elected.
DeleteIt is a gross exaggeration to say that Hamas poses a mortal threat to Israel as a whole. That's ridiculous. The mortal threat is from external nations such as Iran. My understanding is that Iran has been holding back Hezbollah in order to keep the region from becoming more enmeshed militarily. Apparently, even though Iran supplied the weapons, they did not expect the brutality of this attack and they do not want outright war. Israel's survival is not in question, but the peace of the region is and it is a good sign that Iran is not making things worse, a sign that peace can be negotiated.
I understand your fears, David, but I don't think it helps to assume the worst in the face of evidence to the contrary. That would tend to incite more violence, not calm things down in the region.
Israel does have a mortal threat: itself.
DeleteZionist Jews kicked the Palestinians off their land, brought European funding and agricultural knowledge to commodify that land to become wealthy, and then rubbed the Palestinians’ nose in these circumstances by forcing them into what is known as the largest open air prison in history.
Sensitive to the criticisms Israel was receiving from their mistreatment of Palestinians, they helped created and prop up a terrorist organization - Hamas, that would serve to then justify their apartheid ethnostate.
Jews live in relative peace and comfort throughout the world…except for Israel. Israel is a complete failure.
Wars are most often the result of a country suffering from internal chaos. Netanyahu is facing corruption charges, and the ultra orthodox religious zealots in the country are trying to take it over.
Through new technologies, better education, better parenting, much of the world is waking to the disasters right wingers have propagated, and those right wingers are panicking - trying to corrupt elections through gerrymandering and voter suppression, invading other countries, creating chaos through violence, enforcing police states, engaging in oppressive culture wars, etc.
Somerby today offers a mundane, bordering on inane, merely descriptive rendering of people reacting to the tragedy in, and of, Israel.
ReplyDeleteIt’s been almost 20 years since Carter, elderly even at that time, accurately described Israel as apartheid. It’s been even longer since an elderly Mandela noted “our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians”. These old folks, decades ago, were re-stating a circumstance that had been obvious to, and noted by, leftists for decades prior.
That younger people understand the plight of Palestinians at somewhat higher rates than their elders, speaks to improvements society has made in parenting, improvements the Right is constantly trying to reverse, through culture wars like their dangerous “anti-woke-ism” campaign.
I agree with all of this, but I would add that the inability of the young people to appeciate the larger context of the conflict is due to their youth, their relative lack of knowledge of history (especially of the past 100 years), and their tendency to react as if issues were black and white and not complex. No one has a magic wand to wave and solve this conflict, but youth tend to believe it could all just stop if adults wanted it to. I wish that were true, but it isn't.
DeleteToday, in partial agreement with Blow, Somerby says:
Delete"That said, we agree with Blow's general advice. Some of those young people may bring types of knowledge to the discussion which go beyond the types of knowledge their self-assured elders possess.
Instead of telling them to shut up, some of those older hedge fund types should possibly ask themselves if there is something they could learn from those younger people—something which might add to or complicate their own understanding of the matter at hand."
It struck me that the kinds of knowledge those young people have might arise from being "woke" and from taking exactly the kinds of classes that the right is trying to suppress. Yet Somerby has been consistently critical of such knowledge and the professors who have helped spread it. One cannot deride such learning when it fits one's political agenda and then switch and condone it when some young person says something we agree with. Woke is woke and it leads down many paths, some of which Somerby may wish had not been trodden.
I am waiting for Somerby to notice the Ken Burns "The American Buffalo" film that appeared on PBS this week. That opened my eyes to things I wish I had realized much sooner. I am in favor of more wokeness, no matter where or how it happens. It can only help improve our reactions to crises, like the one in Israel, the one at home, and the ones we have not yet become embroiled with in the future.
No one can construe Emmanuel's essay as a call to shut up young people, as Somerby claims. He was suggesting that we provide courses in ethics where they can discuss the issues they are concerned with from more sides and in their full complexity, benefitting from thinking about ethics formally, instead of as an emotional reaction to compelling suffering, which is mostly what propaganda on both sides offers. You'd think Somerby would be in favor of that, given his complaint about emotion-driven overreaction, just a day or so before his attack on Emanuel's essay.
DeleteI think Somerby is a real person. I think his feelings are hurt when you rudely insult his writing.
DeleteI was referring to 7:22.
DeleteDG, I’m sure Somerby gets exasperated and likely piqued at times, but I doubt his feeling are hurt.
DeleteSurely Bob understands that annonymices are the blogboard equivalent of operatives.
Anonymouse 7:40pm, Bob seemed to consider Emanuel as being the one who had an emotionally driven overreaction.
DeleteI’d wager that Bob doubts that more courses will modulate that age group.
You can tout the virtues of that sort of endeavor and there likely may be some good that could come from it. I agree with Emanuel’s overall takeon the students, but I do understand Bob’s/anyone’s amusement at this plan and his “kids say the darndest things” take…. as well as his point that nowadays, adults say a shocking amount of juvenile dumb shite too.
I find it kind of offensive to compare college kids to the 4-5 year olds on Linkletter's show. Those college kids are adults, not children. Pretending that a man who is expert in ethics is a child is deeply offensive too. Somerby should enumerate real arguments against Emanuel, not just dismiss him with this ridiculing comparison. But Somerby just loves to ridicule, not debate, professors and other people designated as experts.
DeleteGiving college students more to consider than the propaganda they encounter among activist groups on campus is a very good idea. Ethics courses teach students how to think about difficult situations involving competing values. That is EXACTLY what this crisis in Israel is. Dismissing that idea as too costly or impractical would be one thing, but that isn't what Somerby said. In fact, Somerby refused to engage the topic at all. He offered platitudes (war sucks, children shouldn't be killed).
Your wagers about what Somerby thinks never get confirmed because nones of us knows the guy and he doesn't read the comments. He isn't going to tell us why he is against Emanuel's suggestion, any more than he will tell us why he dislikes Emanuel, but he plainly does, judging by the ridicule itself, which is plain for all to read. And Emanuel is not advocating any emotion-based reaction to Israel. In fact, he considers the students to be emotionally driven themselves, as young people would be after being told about so-called atrocities in Gaza and the unfairness of their treatment by the Israelis.
DG, Somerby is a real person. He claims that he doesn't read his comments, but some of us doubt that. He is also a standup comedian. In that occupation, the comedians encounter both hecklers and reviews. They learn how to deal with hecklers while on stage and if they remain in the job, they learn not to let them get to them. The film The Kings of Comedy interviews standup comedians touring the US and asks them how they feel about hecklers and how they deal with. It is part of their job and they all encounter it. The reviews are a different matter. Comedians do have their feelings hurt by reviewers and it affects their success and attendance at their shows. If comedians ignore those reviews, they miss the opportunty to improve their work and do better with audiences.
DeleteSomerby may regard what he does here as a kind of performance art, comedy of the sort that Andy Kaufman used to do. In that case, the comment reaction is part of the performance too. He may participate in the comments (as some here have suggested) to influence reaction or test ideas or just for fun. Or maybe he truly doesn't care about what others think and he is just staying mentally active in his old age. He is 76+. I imagine that several of the commenters here are elderly and staying mentally active as political junkies, or disabled and bored at home. This may just be engrossing mental exercise for all of us.
I guarantee that Somerby is not crying his eyes out over anything anyone says here. You don't become a standup comedian with a thin skin. You don't teach school for 10-12 years either with a thin skin.
I consider most of the criticisms of Somerby to be valid and based on his writing itself. If Somerby wanted to short-circuit that criticism he could easily do it by stopping the coyness and saying what he means. He is doing this ambiguous weird shit on purpose and he can stop the speculation by speaking plainly. That he doesn't do so, should tell you he doesn't want to stop playing whatever game he is playing here.
The Original Kings of Comedy, 2000, by Spike Lee.
DeleteAnonymouse 9:51pm, I smell a concerted effort, since about 8:20pm, to get things back on “track”.
DeleteHere’s another movie reference - Anonymices never sleep.
Don't forget that we inhabit different time zones.
DeleteAnd you’re concrete as concrete.
DeletePresident Biden didn't do anything wrong.
ReplyDeleteWhat about those times Jill faked an orgasm?
DeleteOff topic.
DeleteThose were times Biden was likely doing it wrong, thus contradicting the claim.
DeleteThe “you’re doing it wrong” meme comes from the classic movie Mr Mom.
You can’t hijack this thread.
DeleteIf you have to explain this joke, maybe it just isn't funny?
DeleteIf I heard Jill fake an orgasm, I might have a stroke!
DeleteThe walls are closing in on President Biden and his influence peddling schemes.
DeleteWhy do right wing trolls waste their time posting comments like this that everyone knows are false?
DeleteRight wing trolls, which includes many republican congressmen, don't care if it is true or false. The important this is just to get it out there with their Mighty Wurlitzer Machine on right wing cable and 24/7 Hate Radio.
DeleteWait…what? A president schemes to be influential? Hilarious! Can we please get more of this kind of humorously moronic take?
DeleteThe asymmetry between what Israel suffers and the suffering Israel causes is drastic and dramatic; Israel is exponentially worse.
ReplyDeleteThis mirrors another asymmetry; Israel is tearing at the seams as it becomes increasingly segregated and increasingly run and ruled by right wing orthodox and ultra orthodox sectors that are out-reproducing secular sectors at an alarming rate. The path from religious indoctrination to right wing to fascism, is well worn.
Having said that, it all pales in comparison to tragedies in the US, for example, where guns are now the leading cause of death for children ages 1-18, gun deaths are near 50k per year, and White suicides are also near 50k per year. We have a militarized and aggressive police force that routinely kills and hospitalizes thousands of people every year - disproportionately people of color, yet are so cowardly as to wait idly by as a wounded lost soul murders a bunch of schoolchildren.
Brings to mind King Crimson’s Epitaph:
The wall on which the prophets wrote
Is cracking at the seams
Upon the instruments of death
The sunlight brightly gleams
When every man is torn apart
With nightmares and with dreams
Will no one lay the laurel wreath
When silence drowns the screams?
Confusion will be my epitaph
As I crawl, a cracked and broken path
If we make it, we can all sit back and laugh
But I fear tomorrow I'll be crying
Yes, I fear tomorrow I'll be crying
Yes, I fear tomorrow I'll be crying
Between the iron gates of fate
The seeds of time were sown
And watered by the deeds of those
Who know and who are known;
Knowledge is a deadly friend
If no one sets the rules
The fate of all mankind I see
Is in the hands of fools
Comparing people’s suffering is a foolish enterprise because it is subjective, not necessarily related to observable conditions, and definitely not quantifiable. Is mental anguish not suffering?
DeleteThink about the asymmetry between what the U.S. suffers and the suffering the U.S. causes.
DeleteWere one to suggest that noticing a difference between a toe stub and cancer is a “foolish enterprise”, that would seem to be itself quite foolish.
DeleteThe suffering in the US is significant and largely self inflicted.
DeleteComparing one person’s cancer with another’s or one toe stub with another is foolish.
DeleteYesterday, my old man reminded me that we dropped atomic bombs on Japan. He said, “What do you think war is?”
Delete8:53 and 8:31 you have lost the plot line. The original comment is about asymmetry, not comparing, therefore your assessments are irrelevant.
DeleteThe point was that one group has suffered more than the other in this war. If someone on the Israeli side were anguished with guilt because of what is being done in retaliation, is his suffering less than someone who is the hospital with shrapnel wounds? How can the two be compared. Appeals that claim greater suffering are akin to citing the number of children killed. They are propagandistic, not serious. There is enough suffering on both sides and it makes no difference if someone says there is 10% more in Gaza Palestinians than among the relatives of those who were raped and killed among Israeli settlers. I despise this sort of comparison.
Delete"What do you think war is?"
DeleteThere are rules and limits to what may be done in war. Violations are the basis for terms of peace settlements and for trials of perpetrators of atrocities. It matters that Russia has been violating the rules in Ukraine. It certainly affects the willingness of the US to provide aid -- or it does for Democrats, but apparently not for Republicans who support Trump and Putin. Is it any surprise that wartime atrocities do not bother Trump, when he has broken major and minor laws of the US with impugnity and is not trying to evade trial?
type correction: impunity and is now trying to evade trial
Delete9:31 it’s not a comparison - your reframing is nonsensical, but even so, it would seem quite foolish to ignore such asymmetries, as to follow such a notion to conclusion would likely result in a might-makes-right style society, immiserating all but the lucky few so privileged.
DeleteAnonymouse 9:35pm, we’re both aware of such things. Sometimes we need to be reminded of the basics.
DeleteKatie Halper and Norman Finkelstein respond to Amy Schumer:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfXzolZdVW0
Well, I'll say it, since no one else has.
ReplyDeleteCongratulations to President Biden and SoS Blinken for getting 2 American hostages released while the republican majority in congress claw each others eyes out.
Congratulations to Republicans for - this time - not electing a Speaker that remained silent when college kids came to him begging for help in dealing with a serial sexual assault offender.
DeleteThere is info that Palestinian terrorists were dosed with Captagon, an amphetamine-based stimulant that enabled them to do things people wouldn't normally do (unthinkable acts) as well as dulling pain and hunger and hyping up the nervous system. It was first produced in Germany for treating ADHD but banned because it is addictive. That may account for the killing and raping frenzy by Hamas. Are people given such a drug accountable for their actions? If it were provided without telling them what it was, would they be? For those who don't know already, there were troops on both sides (Allies, Axis) that were given performance enhancing drugs during WWII. Would this info change someone's attitude about the brutality of the Palestinians as a group?
ReplyDeleteThere are assertions that Assad and his associates have made billions selling this drug. Assad has denied it, of course. Each capsule sells for $3-5.
DeleteMaybe we should be talking about how the nature of warfare has changed?
"To what extent does our tribe really care?"
ReplyDeleteClassic Somerby conflation. No wonder DrowninginConfusion, dogface, BoxoWhine, and broken record AC/MA loves him.
What I find bizarre is how some liberals can support the Palestinians and Hamas. Israel shares many values with liberals, Hamas and the Palestinians do not. E.g., tolerance of people with different sexual orientation. Racial and religious tolerance, democracy, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, etc. Groups of people who would be murdered if they ever dared set foot in Gaza nevertheless support the Palestinian side. To me, that's like a black person supporting the Ku Klux Klan.
ReplyDeleteI see the New York Times has a related column
DeleteOn Israel, Progressive Jews Feel Abandoned by Their Left-Wing Allies
Jewish leaders and voters said they were taken aback to discover that many of their ideological allies saw them as oppressors who deserved blame following the Israel attacks.
Progressive Jews who have spent years supporting racial equity, gay and transgender rights, abortion rights and other causes on the American left — including opposing Israeli policies in Gaza and the West Bank — are suddenly feeling abandoned by those who they long thought of as allies.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/20/us/politics/progressive-jews-united-states.html?smid=url-share
Your reasoning is poor. All liberals don't share the same values and all Palestinians and Hamas are not at odds with the aggregate of those values.
DeleteYou know, David, I never understood how you don't have cognitive dissonance from supporting the same politicians who are supported by white supremacists and neo-Nazi groups who would like to see you burned in an oven. Never made sense to me.
DeleteJoe Biden received a $200,000 payment from his brother James Biden, who had received the same amount from one of his companies.
ReplyDeletehttps://jabberwocking.com/biden-crime-family-clown-show-still-screening-in-a-tweet-near-you/
There is no evidence of influence peddling in the Biden family. The lack of evidence was demonstrated at the congressional hearings on impeachment. Influence peddling requires a quid pro quo, not just someone in the family receiving some payment or other. There is no quid pro quo and thus no crime.
DeleteIf Biden is ever accused and found liable for fraud in a court of law, or forced to pay millions to settle fraud lawsuits, I’m sure Democrats will want him removed from office. If Trump is ever accused and found liable for fraud, or forced to pay millions, I’m sure Republicans - oh, never mind.
DeleteIt is vitally important that republicans vote in a new House speaker soon, so that they can return to the important work of smearing the Bidens.
DeleteThe $200,000 payment is evidence. Maybe you mean there's no conclusive evidence. There's piles and piles of evidence.
DeleteDrum says "Except.......it turns out that Joe had loaned his brother $200,000 a few weeks earlier. When his brother got the money he needed to repay him, he did. That's, um, about all there is to this."
DeleteExcept ...
1. There's no proof that a loan was made.
2. Whether the money to Joe Biden was the payment of a debt or just a payment, if it was enabled by the leveraging of his name then he did benefit from his family’s business ventures.
Drum says the brother "James Biden received $200,000 from a hospital company he had partnered with" but leaves out that "according to bankruptcy court documents, James Biden received these loans “based upon representations that his last name, ‘Biden,’ could ‘open doors’ and that he could obtain a large investment from the Middle East based on his political connections.”"
DeleteThat's influence peddling.
Not that there's anything wrong with it.
I would probably do it if my brother or daddy was a powerful world leader.
If you bold-cap, your lack of evidence of any crime looks so much more incriminating!
DeleteEmpty comment.
DeleteHere ya go lightweight:
DeleteDrum says "Except.......it turns out that Joe had loaned his brother $200,000 a few weeks earlier. When his brother got the money he needed to repay him, he did. That's, um, about all there is to this."
Except ...
1. There's no proof that a loan was made.
2. Whether the money to Joe Biden was the payment of a debt or just a payment, if it was enabled by the leveraging of his name then he did benefit from his family’s business ventures.
Drum says the brother "James Biden received $200,000 from a hospital company he had partnered with" but leaves out that "according to bankruptcy court documents, James Biden received these loans “based upon representations that his last name, ‘Biden,’ could ‘open doors’ and that he could obtain a large investment from the Middle East based on his political connections.”"
That's influence peddling.
Not that there's anything wrong with it.
I would probably do it if my brother or daddy was a powerful world leader.
@12:46 AM
DeleteI seem to remember one of your Great Leaders settling a "kiss it" lawsuit, and found liable of perjury in a deposition. Without a shred of doubt.
Turned out it was just fine. Neither you nor your betters had any problem with it.
He did not commit perjury, the judge had already ruled the question was immaterial to the Paula Jones bullshit lawsuit that was conceived by some nasty characters in Arkansas and funded by a shadowy right wing billionaire.
DeleteCorby is adorable.
DeleteSad to see Dogface is actually a mid.
DeleteThat’s a step up from what most mice call me.
DeleteThe $600k loan Biden’s brother received was from a healthcare corporation that later went bankrupt due to mismanagement, and in a court filing related to the bankruptcy, the corporation made a claim that part of the reason they made the loan to Biden’s brother was because he indicated he could obtain financing merely through the “brand” of his last name.
DeleteThis claim has not been substantiated and is without evidence, and on its face seems desperately nonsensical and meritless; however, even if the claim proved accurate it does not indicate that Biden’s brother engaged in anything illegal or even unethical.
Furthermore, the House Republicans pushing this smear already possess the documentation that demonstrates that Biden did indeed loan his brother $200k prior to the repayment. The Republicans have obstructed this fact, but the House Committee also have Dem members, who have revealed this fact that the Republicans are hiding.
It would appear that the Republicans are unwittingly demonstrating that Biden cares about and supports his family, and nothing else.
Well, Bob managed to solve the problem of
ReplyDeletethe war. Perhaps it’s easy when you care so
much. Obviously it’s all the evil indifference
of MSNBC.
For those of us in a reality based world,
however, this heartbreaking crisis defies
such drivel. Arguments become repetitive
and you spot dubious conclusions and
prejudices; you measure them against
your own feelings. At one point, for many
years, much of the vibe here in the states
seemed to be defined by the outrage over
the PLO slaughter at Munich. Now it
seems all but forgotten. Both Blow( Trevon
Martin) and Somerby (hatred of liberal
cable) work in their pet obsessions
into the mix, irrelevant as they are.
Not very helpful.
Recruitment:
ReplyDeleteFanny van der Faart, civilian.
Corby has seen enough.
ReplyDeleteMao is still lurking.
ReplyDeleteToday's Wall Street Journal opinion page asks an interesting question. What do you think the answer is?
ReplyDeleteWhy Hamas Atrocities Lead the Left to Hate Israel More
You might think that an atrocity like Hamas’s Oct. 7 massacre in Israel would lead opponents of the Jewish state to temper their attacks. Instead, from college campuses to mainstream media outlets, elite left-wing circles have responded to the terror group’s barbarism by intensifying their denunciations of Israel. That may seem counterintuitive, but it’s typical. The worst demonization of the Jewish state has typically followed the worst atrocities against it.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-hamas-atrocities-lead-the-left-to-hate-israel-more-15abdc6?mod=opinion_lead_pos7
White tears for colonizers can land on the ground and salt the land they will continue to steal
ReplyDelete