Part 3—Or so one Trump voter says: "I am not an animal!"
One Trump supporter has now made this claim. Down below, we'll review his more precise statement.
The Trump supporter who made this claim hails from Brooklyn, New York. He was one of fifteen people who got a chance to explain their support for Trump in last Thursday's New York Times.
On that day, the Times devoted its entire editorial page to letters from those fifteen Trump voters. The next day, the Times published seven letters of rebuttal. Those letters appeared beneath this striking headline:
"The Furor Over a Forum for Trump Fans"
Tomorrow, we'll consider "the furor" which resulted when the New York Times had the gall to publish the thoughts of Trump voters. For today, let's consider the letters those Trump supporters composed—the good, the bad and the otherwise.
Why do people still support Trump? The question strikes us as important. Given the way our system works, those Trump supporters pack plenty of clout. A sensible person might want to know why they support DJ Trump.
People don't have to tell the truth when they write such letters, of course. Beyond that, the fifteen letters the Times chose to publish don't constitute a scientific sample of Trump supporter sentiment.
Still, we found those letters intriguing. Let's tick off some basic points:
For starters, one Trump supporter after another said Trump has a lousy temperament. One such Trump supporter hails from Chatham, New Jersey. His letter includes this assessment:
LETTER FROM CHATHAM, NEW JERSEY: Opinion polls give Mr. Trump a low rating, and I would, too, for character, personality and temperament. But I would give him high marks for policies and programs that are stimulating the private sector...Oof! This Trump supporter even assailed the character of the man he supports. But he gave the president high marks for policy, as most other writers did.
Yesterday, we posted the text of the first two letters from those Trump supporters. Those letters praised Trump's performance in a long list of policy areas.
In what areas do Trump supporters think he's performing well? In those letters to the Times, they praised him for "destroying ISIS" and for his support for Israel. They seem to like his "tax reform." They like the judges he's picked.
Again and again, the supporters say they like Trump's work in "stimulating the private sector," the phrase employed by the Chatham resident—in producing a "roaring economy." We'll admit that we wondered how much expertise the writers brought to this matter.
How much has the economy actually grown, or roared, under Trump, as opposed to under Obama? Could these writers actually say? More generally, how often do we voters, of whatever stripe, know what we're talking about?
We often wondered if these Trump supporters knew what they were talking about. Meanwhile, a few of the letters seemed basically absurd on their face. One such letter said this:
LETTER FROM CINCINNATI: A president like Donald Trump only appears every 100 years or so. He came to office with a solid Electoral College majority and a history of strong leadership of people from all walks of life. His positive agenda can be boiled down to national security and economic growth.That was the entire letter! It mixed a pointless, semi-hundred year claim about "a solid Electoral College majority" with the iconic comical claim in which a politician says that his greatest flaw is the fact that he's sometimes "too honest."
By any measure President Trump’s first year has shown prodigious progress. As a child of the ’60s I admire his iconoclastic nature, optimism and unapologetic humanity. When asked during the campaign about his truthfulness, he replied that maybe he is too truthful. He does ruffle feathers, but seems to end up being right about most important things. I think Mr. Trump is doing a terrific job against all odds, and is getting better. I am proud when I see the First Couple representing us on the world stage. Tens of millions of thoughtful, compassionate Americans agree with me.
That letter struck us as absurd on its face. A letter from a professor in Greenwich struck us as pretty silly too—but other letters did not.
We often wondered to what extent the writers knew whereof they spoke. But various writers made various points we can't quite deride as bogus.
For one example, consider the letter from Jimmy Stewart's fictional Bedford Falls, by way of New York City.
Needless to say, the letter isn't actually from the fictional Bedford Falls—but it could have been. Today, the Trump supporter who wrote the letter lives in New York City. But here's what he wrote about where he grew up and why he still supports Trump:
LETTER FROM NEW YORK CITY: My hometown, Newton Falls, Ohio, was once a working-class Mayberry. Though not rich, the men and women of the town had pride and worked hard for their families and for their share of the American dream.In Jimmy Stewart's dream of the future in the film It's A Wonderful Life, Bedford Falls has come to ruin because of a banker's greed. In this young person's letter, his own home town has fallen apart due to several causes.
I am 28, and in the nearly three decades I’ve been alive, I’ve seen Newton Falls and its surrounding environs succumb to a despair reflected by the opioid crisis. I have seen Republicans and Democrats sell out through a false dogma of free trade. I have seen my friends sent abroad to foreign lands with ill-defined military missions, coming back mangled or not at all. I have seen a political class eager to replace a working class with an imported labor class, driving down wages.
One candidate sought to address this—Donald Trump. While admittedly a gamble, he promised to address the trifecta of poor trade deals, an end to needless foreign wars and a crackdown on immigration. On these three goals, he has done an excellent job so far and I support him wholeheartedly.
According to the leading authority on Newton Falls, the small Ohio village "is known for its ZIP code (44444) and for its covered bridge, which is the second oldest in the state." In 2010, Newton Falls was 97.6% white. This lets us maintain our favorite stance in response to voters like this.
That said:
This young man attributes the demise of his home town to the opioid crisis; to "the false dogma of free trade;" to a set of foreign wars; and to the desire for cheap "imported labor."
Does he know what he's talking about? We have no idea. But very few Clinton voters would really know how to discuss those topics either—and have you ever seen Democrats shut down the government over anything that's negatively affecting places like Newton Falls?
We liberals don't see these topics discussed on our own corporate "cable news" news channel. Instead, we receive a nightly "true crime" drama, featuring the entertaining chase after Trump—full stop.
Remember when Chris Hayes and Bernie Sanders went to West Virginia and heard about opioid infestation? Have you seen followup on that discussion from our multimillionaire cable stars?
We also don't see discussions of Detroit's 48,000 public school kids, or of Baltimore's dead. Simply put, our stars don't care about people like them. For the most part, we liberals don't notice.
Have these Trump supporters been misled about the destruction of ISIS? About the roaring economy? About Trump's role in same?
Do they know what they're tallking about? Do their perceptions make sense?
By and large, we'll guess the answer is no—but we liked that young man's letter. We were also struck by this part of the last of the fifteen letters:
LETTER FROM BROOKLYN: Before I respond to your questions, I have a question of my own: Did you run similar surveys for Obama voters? Or, for that matter, Eisenhower voters? Trump voters are not circus freaks to be displayed or singled out.Trump voters aren't circus freaks? Where in the world did this Trump supporter ever get that idea?
The Times published fifteen letters from these Trump supporters. Tomorrow, we'll review the seven letters of rebuttal which appeared the next day. Those letters were part of the "furor" the first fifteen letters caused.
Do liberals want to speak with Trump supporters, hoping to change their minds? The letters which emerged from that furor suggested that, in some cases, no, we pretty much don't.
In our view, the letters of rebuttal were perhaps unintentionally funny, but were also perhaps revealing. All in all, our species may be wired for (lack of) sound.
Are we wired to loathe The Others more than we're wired to listen? Could this be true of Us, Over Here, as much as it's true about Them?
Tomorrow: The Ghost of Gene Brabender Present
Focusing on only one part of Bob's post - his question about whether liberals really want to speak with Trump supporters in an attempt to change their minds - I can say that I've done so on many occasions, both in-person (with family, friends, and acquaintances) and online (in comment forums).
ReplyDeleteIn both cases, the big problems are (a) people are trying to "win" a debate rather than exchange information, and (b) people don't have full information, and the "facts" they bring to the discussion often conflict with one another.
My understanding of Bob's blog is that he focuses on the media because in a democracy we need to be able to have an agreed-upon set of facts that we can then debate. Unfortunately, the "MSM" has been really bad for a very long time, and the right-wing media have filled that void with propaganda.
Regarding trying to change people's minds, I can only say that I've commented on multiple blogs, and it's often very difficult to get anyone to actually address an opinion that doesn't simply agree with the prevailing viewpoint. Moreover, I've been "banned" from both Instapundit and Gateway Pundit merely for expressing opinions that differ from those of the blog hosts.
In short, it's not easy even having a real discussion about issues, and it's almost impossible to see one on TV or radio. Our democracy is in bad shape.
agree wholeheartedly. its what president Obama was talking about when he mentioned retreating into our little boxes where we only look at information that agrees with our viewpoint...many people are not willing to accept that their team has done ANYTHING wrong, not one thing...which is absurd - no one can be right 100% of the time!!
Deletethe other night I was switching back and forth between CNN and FOX News and it was like living in two different worlds. I fear the downfall of our democracy will be from 24 hr news stations, internet blogs, and bots.
bad shape and getting worse. I only hope that there is a reasonable silent majority out there that sees through all the partisan BS.
I think that the media and others need to stop pretending that Mark Levin, Sean Hannity, et al. don't exist. They have big platforms, and they use those platforms to spread disinformation every single day.
DeleteI hope that Mueller realizes that the roll-out of his conclusions has to be not just tight from a prosecutorial standpoint, but also from a PR standpoint. Those conclusions need to be as straightforward and untouchable as possible, in order to persuade anyone who is capable of being persuaded. Which probably still means that 30% of the public will never admit what's happened.
And I wish that Somerby would stop ignoring Hannity, et al. I try, but I cannot stomach Fox News. I don't feel that MSNBC, for example, is really equivalent to Fox, even if it is still worthy of criticism. I'd love to see a different focus on major cable news, like the "48,000". The problem is, such a cable network or program might fail to reach a sufficient audience. And Somerby sometimes seems to implicate all liberals ( not just the media), like when he accused Prof Miles of not caring about the 48,000, or criticizing LeBron James for making a statement, or condemning the writers of letters to the editor, or attacking Kathy Griffin. Plus his tone is often so over-the-top mocking that it really undercuts his argument. I'd prefer well-reasoned criticism over sarcasm. Somerby's approach often seems more defeatist than helpful.
Delete"I think that the media and others need to stop pretending that Mark Levin, Sean Hannity, et al. don't exist. They have big platforms, and they use those platforms to spread disinformation every single day."
DeleteHannity's weekly radio audience is 13.5 million compared to Maddow's 2.7 million viewers. TDH doesn't think those 13 million people matter.
"CIA Director Mike Pompeo on Tuesday praised President Trump’s grasp of intelligence briefings, saying he has the same depth of understanding as agency veterans.
ReplyDelete“I have seen 25-year intelligence professional receive briefings. I would tell you that President Trump is the kind of recipient of our information at the same level that they are,” Pompeo said"
Obviously Pompeo is another liar.
DeleteIt's amazing how brilliant president dumbfuck is when the cameras are off. I wonder why president chickenshit hasn't had a full legitimate press conference in over 500 days to show off his amazing brilliance and command of the issues.
DeleteI'd like to know why Attorney General, Jeff Sessions, refuses to indict and prosecute Trump for using a teleprompter. That's corruption at the highest level of the government.
DeleteThanks again, for showing me how to be outraged, Fox News.
Somerby says: "the Times published seven letters of rebuttal"
ReplyDeleteThose were not letters of rebuttal. They were letters of protest, complaining about the space allotted to Trump voters, the repeated overemphasis on their opinions as if Trump voters were the only ones who matter.
A rebuttal would be written differently.
We don't know how the "rebuttal" letter were chosen. I would guess that they represented the type of letters the Times had. That would imply that a large number of Times readers would react as described in these letters.
DeleteAnother reason for liberals to listen to Trump voters is that they might learn something. E.g., right after Trump was elected, Paul Krugman wrote, "If the question is when markets will recover, a first-pass answer is never." As we now know he could not have been more wrong.
ReplyDeleteSo, I suggest that liberals consider what Trump did that was so successful and beneficial. Even if they never support Trump, they might want to support some of his ideas.
Here's the thing: Krugman obviously got that one wrong. I see references to that statement multiple times a day on Instapundit. It's fine to call-out Krugman for getting something wrong, but it would be nice to have similar attention brought to the many people who claimed for years that Obama was a Kenyan-born Muslim who was intent on destroying America and wanted to take people's guns.
DeleteFor example, our current President wasn't called to account even during the election for his many statements about his investigators finding things no one would believe about Obama's birth.
Finally, I don't know that Trump has been "so successful and beneficial" to the economy. He hasn't screwed it up, which is a good thing, but really all he's done is preside over a continuation of an expansion that began 8 years ago, under Obama (which he decried as Fake News throughout the election, of course).
What do you think that Trump has done that's been so "successful and beneficial"?
What do you think that Trump has done that's been so "successful and beneficial"
DeleteJonny, I don't want to rehash a silly argument about how much credit Trump does or doesn't deserve. I think you know what my answer is, but here it is again:
The stock market skyrocketed right after the election. This shows that the business community had somehow become convinced that they would do better under Trump than under Hillary.
As President, Trump did several things that I believe fueled the current economic expansion
-- Appointment of conservative judges
-- Big cut in regulations, both current and going forward
-- big cut in EPA staff
-- Withdraw from Paris Agreement
-- Cut the corporate and business income tax rates
(I do not think that the cuts in personal income tax rates did much to boost the economy.)
Krugman withdrew his opinion within 2-3 days.
DeletePerhaps InstaThug should be reminded of how false and bogus his comments regarding the Iraq war were, and I don't believe he recanted for years (if he did at all).
Things that benefit certain segments of the financial or business community are not necessarily beneficial to the wider citizenry. Where interests conflict, the greater good needs to be considered too.
DeleteIf that big cut in EPA staff results in a threat to the health of residents near a manufacturing plant because those regulations have been relaxed, is it really a good thing just because the stock of that company has gone up?
This is the kind of happy horseshit Comrade DinC engages in constantly. David lives in California, one of the most heavily regulated states in the union. They're doing pretty damn good economically compared to the rest of the country. David points to trump's ridiculous shortsighted pull out of the Paris Accord, yet California, one of many states that have chosen to abide by the Paris Accords and are literally scheduled to host a Climate Change Conference in San Francisco on the Paris Agreement this year. Now, is California lagging behind the rest of the country economically? If there was a true causal relationship between the economic expansion that David boasts about and the administration's decision to peremptorily withdraw from the Agreement, one would expect so. But actually the opposite is the case.
Delete...nearly a thousand mayors, state governors, and CEOs who have signed their own pact to keep fighting climate change.
Twenty Fortune 500 companies, including Apple, eBay, Gap Inc., Google, Intel, Microsoft, Nike, and several universities are among the signatories. A separate mayoral pledge was signed by over 200 cities to build a clean energy economy.
Lou Leonard, World Wildlife Fund’s Senior Vice President of Climate Change and Energy, told The Independent previously that these sub-national alliances are important because decisions about emissions-heavy sectors like transportation, ports, international shipping hubs, urban planning, and land use are all made at the local government level.
Mr Brown's climate conference will feature representatives of sub-national governments, businesses, investors, musicians, and others to highlight action to fight global warming and to "spur deeper commitment" from national governments.
mm - the California economy is fine if you're well off. But, we have the highest poverty rate in the nation. See politifact
DeleteTRUE: California has the nation’s highest poverty rate, when factoring in cost-of-living http://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2017/jan/20/chad-mayes/true-california-has-nations-highest-poverty-rate-w/
Anon 1:30 wrote If that big cut in EPA staff results in a threat to the health of residents near a manufacturing plant because those regulations have been relaxed, is it really a good thing?
DeleteThis is an excellent question. Ideally we should look at the entire gamut of CPA regs and evaluate which of them are useful and which are unduly burdensome. We would look at the news regs the EPA is likely to install. They we could debate the value or harm from Trump's deregulation.
But, in reality there may be hundreds of thousands of pages of EPA regs. Neither of us is going to read them all. Nor would we easily understand their scope and implications.
So, it;s hard to have an intelligent discussion.
DavidinCal,
DeleteYou keep telling us trump has followed through on his promises. If so, where are his tax returns, and why did he shutdown the US government over funding of a wall that Mexico is paying for?
--------------------
You are either a mouth breathing moron or a troll who refuses to argue in good faith, therefore it's hard to have an intelligent discussion.
FTFY. You're welcome.
"the California economy is fine if you're well off. But, we have the highest poverty rate in the nation."
DeleteBullshit. Every Conservative knows that if business is doing well, we're all doing well.
To justify his executive orders nullifying policies protecting people from climate change, hazardous working conditions and persecution because of their religion or citizenship status, President Donald Trump during a Feb. 16 press conference said: "To be honest, I inherited a mess. It's a mess. Jobs are pouring out of the country." He later told the Conservative Political Action Conference that regulations are "crushing our economy."
DeleteCalifornia is the chief reason America is the only developed economy to achieve record GDP growth since the financial crisis of 2008 and ensuing global recession, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Much of the U.S. growth can be traced to California laws promoting clean energy, government accountability and protections for undocumented people. Governor Jerry Brown, now in his fourth term, considers immigrants a major reason for the state's success: "39 percent of us are Latino and the majority are from Mexico," he said in a March 2 interview in his Sacramento office.
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-05-10/california-leads-u-s-economy-away-from-trump
Go fuck yourself, David. You never argue in good faith.
in reality there may be hundreds of thousands of pages of EPA regs. Neither of us is going to read them all. Nor would we easily understand their scope and implications.
So, it;s hard to have an intelligent discussion.
Nevertheless you will continue to point to the gutting of the EPA as a good thing and one of the reasons for the economic growth you boast about, economic growth which in reality is just a continuation of the economic growth engineered by the Obama administration, cleaning up the mess the last republican president you promoted left us.
Sadly for repubs, if you actually look at the stock market over time, you see that 2017 merely showed the same trend line that started in 2009. No, Trump has not had a positive economic impact, this is demonstrably so. You can see about the same increase over the same period of time several times throughout Obama's presidency. Obama was an active president that pushed through policies that had their intended positive impacts. Trump is a retiree golfer/porn star addict that pushes a pen to sign whatever the establishment repubs want.
DeleteRepubs are the queens of baseless assertions and endless logical fallacies. Integrity is not trait they possess.
Silly Boy -- Obama's term coordinated with coming out of a recession. Trump came in after four years of recovery and boosted that recovery.
Delete"Trump came in after four years of recovery and boosted that recovery." Written by David in Cal, the fucking liar.
DeleteAnd despite the fact that President Donald Trump has bragged about his first year in office being an unqualified economic success, it turns out that average monthly job growth in 2017 was 171,000 jobs per month — which was down significantly from the 187,000 jobs per month that were added in 2016.
What’s more, the monthly average of 171,000 jobs created in 2017 was actually the lowest average monthly job growth since 2010, when just 88,000 jobs were added per month.
That's quite a fucking "boost" David.
See what a dishonest mendacious bastard DinC really is.
President Obama took office in the midst of the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.
We were losing 800,000 jobs a month.
The Republicans immediately decided that they would never cooperate with him and they would do everything they had to power to do to make him a "one-term president".
By 2010, the Unemployment rate had topped 10%. By the time Obama left office the unemployment rate was hovering around 4.5% on a downward trajectory.
So during the campaign in 2016 when the fucking pussygrabber bullshit artist lying sack of shit Russian money launder tax cheat and fraud was running around the country attacking the unemployment numbers,
“Don’t believe these phony numbers when you hear 4.9 and 5 percent unemployment,” Mr. Trump said in his victory speech after the New Hampshire primary Tuesday night. “The number’s probably 28, 29, as high as 35. In fact, I even heard recently 42 percent.”
What did DinC have to say about that?
Here, take a look, if you got the stomach.
******
David in Cal February 11, 2016 at 2:54 PM
If the media had been doing a good job all along, they'd be in a better position to rebut Trump's nonsense. Here's what I mean.
Obama has been boasting about how great "his" economy is, because the unemployment rate is down below 5%. The media let him get away with this claim. A sophisticated analysis would credit Obama to some degree, but would also point out that
1. A lot of the improvement was just cyclical -- coming out of a recession.
*****
Isn't it just so cute how David puts the word *his* in quotes. How uppity of President Obama to taken ownership of the economy after serving 8 years to clean up the mess your previous dumbfuck president left us. Am I right David? How very uppity of the former President.
Yet scarcely a month after the pussygrabbing fraud took office, David came running onto these boards to boast about how tremendous the economy was now doing.
David is nothing if not the most transparent phony hypocrite I have ever witnessed.
Some of us Trump voters would be up for grabs if the Democrats ran a candidate like Feinstein, Clinton or Obama before they decided a borderless country was a good idea. Back before they were lobotomized. Not holding out hope. Looks like it will be Trump again in 2020.
ReplyDeleteClinton stated during the 2016 campaign that she was for enforcing our borders. Where do you get the idea she was for a borderless country? This is the kind of statement that doesn't help dialog between the parties.
DeleteObama deported more people than Trump has. Feinstein didn't run for president, so I'm not sure why her name is in this list. She has never had any intention of running for president. She is from a state with large numbers of both legal and illegal immigrants (as well as just lots of people) but she isn't on any committees related to immigration. Seems like she was just gratuitously added.
Then there is the loaded word "lobotomized."
But this is why we don't bother trying to talk to Trump supporters.
Bill Clinton, not Hillary Clinton, back when he was a "racist Trumptard."
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3yesvvYEvs
Then some of his supporters as well as Mr. Trump should stop acting like circus freaks
ReplyDeleteClinton also stated that she says one thing in public and another behind closed doors. She could publicly state that she was in favor of enforcing our borders, but the actions of Democratic Party and the sanctuary cities they control states otherwise.
ReplyDeleteWho's gonna pay for that wall?
DeleteMexico!!!!!!!!!!
Trump Cult Member: We didn't take him literally.
Bob, oh Bob. Sorry, but I haven't finished reading this post, because it's utterly meaningless.
ReplyDeleteThink about it for a second: one of the most rabidly anti-Trump publications prints 15 pro-Trump letters, carefully selected from (most likely) thousands. What could you possibly learn from this? Nothing at all; you've just wasted your time.
In a cubicle in St. Petersburg, no one can hear you scream
Delete
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