MONDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2023
...by the lack of human discernment: Long ago, in war-torn Casablanca, Captain Renault was shocked to learn that gambling had been going on inside Rick's cafe.
Renault gave voice to his astonishment twice; he said he was "shocked, shocked." This produced one of the most famous comic lines in a century of Tinseltown film-making.
In the wake of last weekend's murderous attacks on more than a thousand Israeli citizens, many pundits seemed to be shocked by a well-known fact of life. To appearances, they were shocked to learn that young people, even including college students, don't always display the highest imaginable degree of human moral discernment.
There's a background to this story:
Kids say the darndest things, Art Linkletter initially discovered. As it turns out, this can also be true of college freshmen. It can be true of juniors and seniors, even of graduate students!
It can even be true of young college instructors! Consider the case of the suspended lecturer from the oddly named Stanford course, College 101.
Yes, that seems to be the actual name of a mandated freshman year course! In a column in the New York Times, Pamela Paul described what one instructor did in the wake of last weekend's murderous conduct:
PAUL (10/14/23): Stanford is in the throes of a teachable moment right now, and it’s not a good one.
In an opinion column in The Stanford Daily on Tuesday, the Stanford Students for Justice in Palestine called Hamas’s butchery “part of the ongoing, decades-long struggle against Israeli oppression” and said Palestinians have “the legitimate right to resist occupation, apartheid and systemic injustice.”
A lecturer in one class that day asked Jewish students to raise their hands, then took one of the Jewish student’s belongings and told him to stand apart from everyone else, saying that was what the Israelis did to the Palestinians, a student who was in the class told me. In a later section, another student in the class told me, he turned to an Israeli student and asked how many Jews died in the Holocaust. When that student said six million, the teacher replied, many more millions died in colonization, which is what he said Israel was doing to the Palestinians. He then asked all of the students to say where they were from and depending on the answer, he told them whether they were colonized or colonizer. When a student said, “Israeli,” he called the student a colonizer. (The lecturer did not respond to an email request for comment.)
Just for the record, Palestinians do have “the legitimate right to resist occupation, apartheid and systemic injustice,” just like everyone else.
At any rate, that was Paul's description of the events at Stanford. In this report, CNN offered a somewhat more detailed account:
ROMINE ET AL (10/13/23): An instructor at Stanford University has been removed from teaching duties as the school investigates reports that during a discussion on the conflict between Israel and Hamas, the instructor downplayed the Holocaust and singled out students “based on their backgrounds and identities.”
[...]
Rabbi Dov Greenberg, executive director of Rohr Chabad House, Stanford’s Jewish community center, told CNN the students were “shaken up.”
Greenberg, who said he spoke with the students involved in the incident, said they are “not doing well” and are afraid to face backlash or bullying on campus.
According to Greenberg, the students said the instructor tried to justify the actions of Hamas and asked the students how many Jews were killed in the Holocaust.
After one student answered “6 million,” the instructor then said more people have been killed by colonizers and said, “Israel is a colonizer.”
The instructor then illustrated his point by asking some students to physically go to the back of class. “That’s what Israel does to Palestinians,” the teacher said, according to Greenberg.
[...]
The Stanford instructor’s alleged comments came during two classes Tuesday, with a total of 18 students, during which the instructor announced the day’s lesson would focus on colonialism, the San Francisco Chronicle reported. The outlet cited Jewish student leaders who spoke with students in the course called College 101, a required class for first-year students.
Based upon these reports, it sounds to us like this instructor was displaying limited judgment—faulty moral discernment. Indeed:
Assuming these accounts are accurate, it sounds to us like he may have said some very dumb things. (He also may have made some statements which were reasonable and accurate.)
In fairness, no videotape of these events has surfaced. Beyond that, it's a well-known fact:
We humans display limited discernment pretty much all the time! We humans do so "from the right," and we do so "from the left."
Sometimes, we humans also display limited discernment within the mainstream press. That doesn't necessarily mean that we're bad people. It may simply mean that we're people people, behaving as humans frequently do, especially at highly fraught times.
Way back in 1915, Somerset Maugham (no relation) published his best-known novel, Of Human Bondage. The leading authority on the novel thumbnails its theme in this way:
Of Human Bondage is a 1915 novel by W. Somerset Maugham. The novel is generally agreed to be Maugham's masterpiece and to be strongly autobiographical in nature...Maugham, who had originally planned to call his novel Beauty from Ashes, finally settled on a title taken from a section of Spinoza's Ethics. The Modern Library ranked Of Human Bondage No. 66 on its list of the 100 best English-language novels of the 20th century.
[...]
Maugham's initial title was Beauty from Ashes, borrowed from Isaiah 61:3, "... to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of joy instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair"; however, it had already been used. He took the new title from Spinoza. Part IV of his Ethics is titled "Of Human Bondage, or the Strength of the Emotions" (Latin: De servitute humana seu de affectuum viribus). A free person, says Spinoza, is able to think rationally: but when one is dominated by emotion, rational thought is impossible, and one becomes a slave to the (unthinking) passions.
Maugham's novel isn't "political." But at a heavily fraught time like this, we humans often react in emotional ways. Attempts at rational thought may become quite difficult, making it harder for us to find the best way forward.
It seems to us that at least one young Stanford instructor displayed limited human discernment last week. His emotional investments may have led him to put his thumb on the scale as he discussed the events which are now unfolding in Israel and in Gaza.
That said, it seemed to us that many journalists, not necessarily excluding Paul, may have displayed imperfect discernment too. Imperfect judgment may keep us from seeing the best way forward at such times as this.
Some major journalists may be displaying imperfect human discernment! Last week, some of them were shocked, just shocked, by the imperfect discernment some other people displayed.
Often, these observers were shocked at the limited discernment displayed by people who are young.
Some major journalists seemed to be shocked. This doesn't mean that they're bad people.
It may mean that they're people people. We'll explore this theme this week.
Tomorrow: Columnist Paul's formulation
ReplyDeleteHere's what the perfect discernment looks like: Always Follow The Party Line!
No matter where it swings. If yesterday all those "black and brown" people couldn't do wrong -- and today suddenly they are all animals to be put down -- today's Party Line is the perfect discernment today. And tomorrow's Party Line (whatever it is) will be the perfect discernment tomorrow.
You can do it, Bob, it's just a matter of practice.
If this is sarcasm, you really need to label it. But think past your premise and understand that people do use a variety of heuristics for making difficult choices about how to behave. Following rules is one of them and is it necessarily a bad one if the rules help people in difficult situations. The 10 Commandments or just "Do unto others..." have served people well for a lot of centuries and is it bad to follow such a rule in a quandary? Or is everything always so perfectly clear to you that you must ridicule how other people live?
DeleteAll societies have rules that people follow. I doubt you spend much time in your life walking around naked outside your home. You have been taught since childhood how to treat other people kindly and politely, to help those in need, to avoid trouble. These are also aids to discernment. Now you want to ridicule some group of people for whatever you think is their "party line" when we all have rules, for better or worse. Grow up and evaluate the rules themselves, instead of the concept of being guided by rules in difficult (or routine) situations.
“ Now you want to ridicule some group of people for whatever you think is their "party line" when we all have rules, for better or worse. Grow up and evaluate the rules themselves, instead of the concept of being guided by rules in difficult (or routine) situations.”
DeleteLearn to read.
What party line did Hamas follow?
DeleteAnonymouse 11:57am, the post was not directed at Hamas, but at the chattering class…the profs…that have made the word “equity” into a hatchet to throw at the majority and now are so…shocked… to hear of ‘colonizer kids’ being murdered while they hang a rhetorical Star of David around their Jewish students.
Deletelecturers are not profs, many are grad students
DeleteAnonymous 5:09pm, so that means “lecturers are not profs”?
DeleteAnonymices are not logicians.
And it also means they are not part of the so-called chattering class either. They do not write op-eds or appear as guests on cable news shows. They are not experts and not Somerby's targets. The one at Stanford doesn't seem to have been trained as a teacher either -- grad school is on-the-job training for teaching college classes, but the lecturers are supposed to be supervised by faculty who ARE professors. If the lecturer in question was an adjunct, then he or she is a person with a doctorate who hasn't been able to get a full-time tenure track professor job. That means they are not experts or chattering class members either.
Delete“The chattering classes is a politically active, socially concerned and highly educated section of the "metropolitan middle class",[1] especially those with political, media, and academic connections. It is a generally derogatory term,[1] often used by pundits and political commentators.”
Deletehttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chattering_classes#:~:text=The%20chattering%20classes%20is%20a,by%20pundits%20and%20political%20commentators.
Anonymouse 8:27pm, you made a statement that “lecturers are not professors” because “many are graduate students”
DeleteYou stuck your foot in it and now you’re running on about their training.
You’d think that anonymices, who sing their own praises more often than they breath, would recognize that they threw out a non sequitur and move on.
10:02,
DeleteWhat is a non sequitur?
What is moving on?
How is sticking a foot in something allow you to run?
Was it stuck in a training shoe?
Can one sing and breathe at the same time?
Why do you only post gibberish?
I explained how colleges are staffed to someone obviously confused about it. Lecturers for college 101 are not the chattering class.
DeleteI fail to see Somerby's point. People are human and have imperfect judgment, especially when emotional. So what? What are the consequences of this statement, which can apply to any and every situation in life?
ReplyDeleteShall we shrug at every point and say "well, people are human"? Does this apply to Hamas and their imperfect discernment when they engaged in a plan to iill a large number of innocent Jewish people in Israel? Was their discernment imperfect or were there other circumstances that ought to be considered too?
Was Hitler's discernment imperfect too, when he systematically murdered those 6 million Jewish after building camps to exterminate the Jewish population? Do we chalk that up to imperfect humanity and call him an excitable boy?
Is there a difference between an emotional mistake and a crime against humanity? Somerby doesn't say. But he does know that College 101 at Stanford is an oddly named course. Would it be less odd if it were named Freshman Orientation?
As nearly as I can tell, Somerby is today advocating standing around and flapping one's hands in the face of evil deeds and wrong headed reactions to them. In Casablanca, people are both fleeing the war in Europe and opposing it. No one is shrugging and saying "well, people will be people, since we are all human and lack discernment." The film is about taking such a stand and not trying to evade responsibility by remaining "neutral" as Rick tries to do initially.
Somerby still has not told us who he is in mourning for, after telling us a few days ago that he was mourning. I might mourn for the snowflake college students who cannot stand the shock of being told to stand in the back of a classroom as an object lesson illustrating a controversial viewpoint expressed by the instructor. How will they handle the rest of diverse human thought in their classes if this puts them in such a tizzy? And what about Paul's overprotectiveness of them? Somerby won't say -- he is too busy telling us what we already know -- people have imperfect discernment (even if there were a way to decide what perfect discernment should consist of). If Somerby had had such a course, with a flamboyantly opinionated instructor, perhaps he would be able to say ONE definitive thing in an essay, express one god-damned opinion. Instead of excusing the whole of humanity by pointing out that we lack discernment (a word he doesn't bother to define).
Great comment!
DeleteDIC
You can’t physically single out students that way. Or humiliate them in class. It didn’t happen in my 60s and 70s non-snowflake years, and it shouldn’t happen now.
Delete"Somerby still has not told us who he is in mourning for, after telling us a few days ago that he was mourning."
DeleteSome don't need the obvious spelled out for them. Some do.
Bob is mourning the gag orders judges are putting on Trump.
DeleteLearn how to read.
It happened in my classes in the 60s.
DeleteIt isn’t obvious Hector.
DeleteSomerby's essay today demonstrates a startling lack of moral courage. He won't label evil when he finds it. He won't urge better behavior, in discernment or restraint or vengeance or anything at all. He doesn't argue for better teaching. What a waste of space!
ReplyDeleteAnonymouse 10:31am, perhaps Somerby didn’t see anything “evil” in the actions he described, rather than high emotion and whacky ideology greasing the way for poor judgment.
DeleteThat take is not fence sitting, it’s acting with the sort of perspective that’s needed now.
And yet Somerby didn't say that himself. You are saying it for him. Part of the fence-sitting is Somerby's inability to say what he thinks.
DeleteFor one thing, equating the moral dilemmas in Casablanca to anything in College 101 is ludicrous.
Bob didn’t equate Casablanca ‘s plot with what has taken place in various university classrooms.
DeleteHe emulated the high dungeon pretend shock of Captain Renault.
dudgeon means something different than dungeon, even if you are making a police pun
Deletedudgeon definition: "a feeling of offense or deep resentment"
surprise is not the same as offense or deep resentment
Words matter, even when you use them Cecelia.
Back to Somerby -- he is saying that the journalists showed poor judgment when they were shocked by what happened in that Stanford classroom, just like Renault pretended to be surprised by the gambling. He is calling the journalists insincere in their concern when he equates them with Renault, but that is different than his own claim about poor judgment of the instructor below.
It is a silly comparison because expressing dismay and shock about the teaching does not necessarily reflect any surprise -- it is siding with the Jewish students who were singled out for being Jewish when they had nothing to do with what Hamas did and were themselves suffering because of concern for relatives and friends in Israel. (Americans are in Gaza too.)
Somerby is unclear about whose emotionality he thinks is affecting judgment. The emotional response of students connected to Israel seems appropriate to me. Why wouldn't they feel that way? The emotionality of the instructor seems a bit borrowed, politically motivated, removed from the deaths and instead focused on teaching his own viewpoint (cloaked in a supposed lesson about colonialism, which is NOT what is occurring today in Gaza).
Somerby doesn't clearly explain his own interpretation of what is going on, in any respect. He is apparently against emotion, for discernment, against human discernment and for criticizing journalists who did not teach that class or start the war in Gaza. It is hard to see what their crimes was today.
Anonymouse 12:09pm, if you’re shocked over the behavior of the profs then so be. That’s rather like being shocked by the way the journos who are both Muslim and MSNBC employees have responded to this event, or better example yet, the sort of “shock” that the anonymices show at people being called “colonizers”.
DeleteRight.
Yeah, we’re shocked in the way that is worth pointing out, but not being hugely judgmental in a situation that does not need that now.
Anonymices, not withstanding…
Gibberish.
DeleteAnonymouse 12:29, you know exactly what I’m saying and also what the blogger said.
Delete“Why can’t Bob take a moral stand and say what he means?!”
Oh. Sure. We’ve seen this movie before.
You’re criticizing him for writing a piece he didn’t write.
DeleteAs one who used a handle rather than
Delete“Anonymous” for years and was predictably
Insulted and harassed by Trump
voters like Cecelia, we might observe
her inability to come up with a fresh
joke, that goes for you Dogface.
You are so taken with your cleverness,
Cecilia, it suggests you would really
rather call us all Xiggers.
Anonymouse 1:49pm, you weren’t and aren’t harassed, your opinions are countered, and your weird…endless… no matter the topic…animus toward Bob is remarked upon.
DeleteI agree. I’m not “clever”.You certainly are not. You’re endlessly pedantic, because that is an occupational hazard of your anonymouse work.
I’ve never put highly pejorative words in your mouth that you have never uttered, as you just did to me.
I agree with Cecelia hat she is an asshole, and not at all clever.
DeleteI don't know why I'm being dragged into this, but if you want my take, Anonymous, it's that your original comment is a typical "Somerby doesn't say Y!" comment. I find such comments uninteresting.
DeleteWhat Somerby should have said, but shockingly failed to say, is just as terrible as if he had actually said “it”.
DeleteAnonymouse 3:37pm, and I agree that anonymouses think that dissent from their arguments is tantamount to burning crosses in their heirloom tomato plants and prohibiting their right of return to their Pottery Barn couch.
DeleteAnonymous's "musing on blogs and the American discourse" criticizes Somerby for what he should have written instead.
DeleteJust like Bob's "musings on the mainstream press corps and American discourse" criticizes the press corps for what they should have written instead.
Anonymouse 4:14pm, so if Somerby focused on critiquing the public responsiveness of police departments, you’d be carrying on the same work by monitoring his responsiveness to reader emails?
DeleteMy opinions were not “countered” I can hardly recall a time they were even answered. What I was, in the general manner of your tribe, was jeered at.
DeleteI don’t take it overly personally, you
have never shown the ability to
counter anyone’s take, certainly not
on a factual basis. You generally
jump on the Fox nonsense de jour,
and think you have said something,
on the occasions you decide to
work that hard. (Few and far
between) But it’s comforting you
know who I am, I suppose this
Corby fellow is now the guy getting
the treatment from your pals.
They now seems to have a tough
time blocking my comments,
but they are still occasionally
successful. I note others
complain of this too.
Anonymouse 4:37pm, this is typical of your erudite analysis. I rarely watch Fox or any television. I am a conservative and have a particular pov, just as you do as a liberal.
DeleteI have no idea who is on what side when they are making fun of Corby, who was used as some sort of martyr by anonymices which which morphed into spoof. Big surprise there.
Well, you aren’t Dr. Freud or even Joyce Brothers.
Yes, I do know who you are regardless of your wanting to be anonymous and unaccountable from one post to the next.
If all anonymices were Rex, you’d be Rex.
The next good faith argument made by a Right-winger will be the first.
DeleteIt is just a coincidence, an accident, when Cecelia happens to repeat a right wing talking point. Normally she writes gibberish here.
DeleteDr. Joyce Brothers, beloved by the right wing, had no training in psychology (her doctorate is in biology, glucose transport in rats) and her counseling license was revoked (for maintaining a dual relationship with a client -- treating her while requiring that she babysit Dr. Joyce's kid) and then never renewed.
DeleteIt isn't surprising that Cecelia's idea of a trained professional is a charlatan whose advice was actively harmful to her callers. I heard her repeatedly tell single mothers not to go back to school (to get a better-paying job) because they were needed a home (even with school-age kids). Only fools and conservatives listened to her and she is unqualified even to help them, aside from telling them what they no doubt want to hear.
The right seems to actively seek out con artists to bilk them.
Anonymouse 5:45pm, so you took “Well, you’re not Dr. Freud or even Joyce Brothers” as a touting of her abilities?
Delete"What a waste of space!"
DeleteHere's some good news - You are not required to read Somerby's essays! If you don't find them of value, you can read something else!
(Or you can insult Somerby and pester those of us who think that what Somerby says is important. Your choice.)
Someone who holds a different opinion than you is not "pestering" you.
DeleteI don't believe Cecelia could succinctly tell anyone here what Freud is famous for (without copying from Wikipedia or Chat GPT). Brothers is a fraud. That she would put them in the same sentence and then say someone she dislikes is NOT either of them, shows her confusion about these two individuals, since they are not in the same category at all.
How can someone think coherently about anything with such a confused muddle of a brain? That's why I think one of the main divisions between right and left is a matter of stupidity and ignorance, not actual opinion. You can't have a discussion about matters of opinion if people like Cecelia don't know anything and also don't know how to think clearly.
8:23,
DeleteDon't overthink it. Cecelia just repeats words she hears without any sense of understanding or context.
She's Mao, without putting any effort at all into her work.
Anonymices, you aren’t Lawrence Olivier or even Carrot Top.
DeleteTry to get real.
I'm trying to imagine Republicans not putting sexual predators in positions of power, but I keep coming up empty.
DeleteAnonymouse 11:11pm, both Clinton and Biden have had sexual harassment and worse allegations against them and Democrats have shown no hesitancy in calling those women liars, nuts, and whores.
DeleteThe difference is, Cecelia, those were not credible allegations.
DeleteThere are two definitions of discernment:
ReplyDelete1. The ability to judge well
2. (in Christian contexts) perception in the absence of judgment with a view to obtaining spiritual guidance and understanding
Somerby lacks both. He talks about the lack of discernment of others, while refusing to exercise even the tiniest bit of judgment himself, when it comes to human behavior. It is as if all the acts people can commit were exactly the same to Somerby. But we know that they are not. Somerby apparently gave up his own discernment for Lent and never took up the task after that.
It takes courage to be a human being, making decisions in the face of incomplete knowledge, guided by emotion to know what is right and wrong in one's life, but knowing that one will be chastised no matter what choice is made or what decision reached, and that some of our actions will inevitably be flawed. Judgment is not only about choosing what to do, but about evaluating whether one has acted well under the circumstances. That is discernment too.
Tomorrow: Life is Hard but we have to live it anyway.
Erecting a Jewish state in Palestine was a mistake.
ReplyDeleteWhere do you think Jews should have gone when they were being expelled by force from Europe and other places in the Middle East?
DeleteErecting any sort of democratic, non-Islamic state in Palestine would have experienced the same sort of response IMO. The leaders in the middle east don't want that kind of state to be an example to their populace.
DeleteUnoccupied Europe, North and South America, Australia, sub-Saharan Africa, South Asia, East Asia, Mid-East outside of Palestine, …
DeleteBut wherever they went, they should not have expelled the non-Jewish inhabitants, should not have erected a Jewish state.
Those places were all occupied.
DeleteThe non-Jews left in advance of the attack on Israel (Yom Kippur war) urged to do so by Arab attackers. They expected to get their homes back when Israel was defeated but that didn’t happen. That was in 1967.
David, the Zionists expelled the Palestinians and took their land. In the West Bank, Jewish Israelis are continuing to seize Palestinian land. That's not democratic.
DeleteTo 12:28: All occupied? Many of the regions I listed are still receiving immigrants. And Palestine wasn't empty. The Zionists expelled the inhabitants.
DeleteCaesar -- I could debate some of your moral points. I could question just what is meant by "Palestinian land", since the area you're talking about was once a part of Jordan. I could point out that many people have had their land taken away from them, including millions of European Jews, but after time one makes peace with the situation. I could point out that Israel is a wonderful neighbor, because it's a fount of modern day science and technology. The Palestinian people could gain enormously by making peace with Israel and benefiting from Israel's knowledge.
DeleteBut, all that is secondary. As I explain in my comment below, I fear that this is a duel to the death between Israel on one side and Iran and the Palestinians on the other side. Regardless of rights and wrongs, one side or the other will be destroyed.
What's there to debate, David? Why should your cousins live, for no apparent reason, in the middle of the Arab World, fighting tooth and nail the indigenous population and all their neighbors?
DeleteWhy don't they move to, say, California? It's a mystery to me.
And if they don’t want to live near David, they can move to New York.
DeleteWhy don't the Palestinians move to another Arab country? This is why: No Arab country wants the Palestinians. They are considered undesirable, even by their kinsmen.
DeleteMost of them did move to other Arab countries. Jordan, Lebanon.
DeleteBut it's one thing for your cousins to move back where their ancestors lived for hundreds of years, and a completely different thing for people kicked out of their native land to accept it and move on.
Anonymouse 4:23pm, they must accept it and move on.
DeleteWhy is that? And what does it mean: "they must"? They must -- or what? You'll kill them all?
DeleteAnonymouse 5:00pm, why aren’t you asking the president that question?
DeleteYes,, they must.
Biden says Hamas must be eliminated, US officials warn of escalation
Deletehttps://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/conflict-middle-east-could-escalate-us-national-security-adviser-warns-2023-10-15/
I didn't ask Biden, I asked you.
DeleteAlso, I was talking to David when you chimed in, and his 4:15 PM speaks of Palestinians, not Hamas.
Anonymouse 5:16pm, you don’t think it’s odd that you’re asking me if *I’m going to kill people and the president has sent two aircraft carriers to the region?
DeleteAnswer- I haven’t planned to kill anybody.
Has our president?
But you said "they must". And I asked you what you meant -- in the context of my conversation with David, which had nothing to do with Biden's teleprompter.
DeleteBut okay, never mind.
Anonymouse 5:35pm, so a teleprompter (or whoever is typing responses ) is making the decisions, not the president. Is that what you’re saying?
DeleteYes, Palestinians must accept Israel and its right to exist. They will not be driven into the sea or anywhere else.
“They” as in Israelis.
DeleteWell, this sounds like an emotional outburst. I have no response to it.
DeleteYou made my day.
DeleteGod is not a real estate agent.
DeleteNo, He’s a landlord.
DeleteHe's a Muslim.
DeleteCecelia, does God want us to pay rent? Why does he need the money?
DeleteSolvency.
DeleteThe duality between reason and emotion goes back to Descartes who expressed it explicitly, attributing emotion to the physical body, the animal side of humanity, and reason to the spiritual side that is shared with God. This was Descartes compromise between science and religion (specifically the Catholic church he feared with good reason).
ReplyDeleteToday's theorists do not see reason and emotion as opposed but as working together to make faster decisions in a more holistic way that is possible in conscious reasoning alone. Emotion evolved because it benefits survival. It is not "animal" and it is not something that clouds judgment (Somerby's "discernment").
The legacy of Descarte's compromise was that women were assigned emotionality, declared unable to reason, and made second-class citizens because of it, barred from professions and relegated to home and family. They were thought to be so controlled by emotion (and lust, also of the body) that they were not safe without religious supervision and might become slaves to the devil (literally). Women were then persecuted as witches for stepping out of line. Somerby's language about emotionality reflects this flawed understanding.
So, let’s get angry and start shooting everybody! No more of that duality, right?
DeleteAnger motivates change. Guns are optional.
DeleteI was at a family event yesterday that included two Israeli cousins, so this horrible event is all the more real to me. I am very discouraged about the future of this area. It seems to me there no good outcome is possible. Iran and the Palestinians are implacably committed to the destruction of Israel. In the long run, either they will destroy Israel or Israel will destroy them.
ReplyDeleteBTW the idea that a Palestrina state could be a solution has been disproven by events. Gaza effectively WAS a Palestinian state. Israel forcibly relocated the Jewish settlements inside Gaza and then left the Palestinians alone. This horrific attack was the result.
Palestrina should be Palestinian. Spellcheck :(
DeleteA forced impoverished state. Hardly allowed to be one.
DeleteIsrael will destroy Iran?
DeleteI agree with you, @1!:51. I think it's extremely unlikely that Israel will destroy Iran. I think it's quite likely that Iran will destroy Israel. After all, Iran says they want to destroy Israel. They will soon have nuclear weapons, which will give them the ability to do so. It's tragically reasonable to predict that Iran will do what they say they intend to do.
Delete@1:44 forced impoverishment? On the contrary, they have been getting large amounts of money from US and from Europe. The Palestinians used much of the donated money for weapons of attack, rather than for the public good.
DeleteIsrael tried to work with Palestinian people, but Israel had to close the border because some mass murders were coming across and killing large numbers of Israelis.
What's with this Iran-hating?
DeleteYes, the government of Iran is not an American puppet. Is that it? But all of the world's two billion Muslims (and most of the rest) want Zionists out of Palestine. No one likes heavily armed militant ethnocentric movements: it's trouble.
For example, the king of Jordan is a western puppet, but what if he gets overthrown tomorrow? Half of the population of Jordan are Palestinian refugees. When 10 years ago Egypt was allowed to have free elections, the Muslim Brotherhood's candidate won. Had to be overthrown by a military coup. It's hopeless, David. What's the point of all this bloodshed?
@2:43 I hate the Mullahs (not the Iranian people) because
Delete-- they're tyrants
-- they're religious extremists
-- they hate America
-- they financially support terrorists who murder many people
-- They are committed to destroying Israel
-- They use much of their wealth for weapons of aggression, rather than for the good of their citizens
-- They're building nuclear weapons
-- They are a threat to their Arab neghbors.
@2:43 -- Why do you NOT hate the Mullahs?
P,S. They’re also religious bigots and homophobic bigots.
DeleteDavid in Cal
Mullah is just a Muslim priest. I've never been to Iran myself, but I've met people from there. Nice place, apparently. Not without problems, of course, but who is.
DeleteAnyway, you might want to think why some Iranians (and many others) perceive the US and Israel as their enemies, and, often, as as the greatest threat to world peace. You make it sound like it's completely irrational. But who knows, they may not be totally irrational.
“Nice place, apparently. Not without problems, of course, but who is.”
DeleteThis is priceless.
4:22,
DeleteIf you remove "They are committed to destroying Israel", and "They are a threat to their Arab neighbors", you've got a nice list of who makes-up the Republican Party.
@5:02 PM
DeleteYes, from what I heard.
Incidentally, it was an ancient civilization, much like Greece in Europe. Known and greatly respected for its philosophy, poetry, science, culture.
Q. What do you call a Republican who complains about religious and homophobic bigotry?
DeleteA. A RINO.
@4:55 wrote "Anyway, you might want to think why some Iranians (and many others) perceive the US and Israel as their enemies"
DeleteThroughout thousands of years, there has been bias against the Jews. Thomas Sowell opines that it's envy, because Jews are so successful. He also says that Jews tend to be middlemen, and middlemen are perceived as not building stuff. Be that as it may, Iran's hatred of Jews is simply the continuation of a long, long pattern.
The Mullahs hate the US, because the US is s threat to their dictatorial powers. It is my understanding that the Iranian people do not hate the US, but unfortunately the people don't decide the country's policies.
Looked at another way, the battle between Israel and the Palestinians is a battle between a modern, educated liberalism and barbarians.
David why wouldn't regional Muslims think America is a major threat to their existence. We got a Saudi terrorist attack and Bush orders our Army to kill 100's of thousands Iraqi's. They invasion based on the sick American Mulahs behind Project for a New American Century. Wish the whole lot of 'em were in the Hague for their war crimes.
DeleteSometimes one's loyalty is forced upon one. If I entered Gaza, the Palestinians would kill me. That automatically puts me on the other side, regardless of anything else.
DeleteSome liberal Americans support the Palestinians, even though they also couldn't safely be in Gaza. i don't understand that sort of thinking.
Can someone explain why these people support a group who considers them their enemy?
For the same reason the public pays the salaries of police officers.
Delete@11:16 Maybe I was unclear. I was addressing Americans who support Hamas, even though Hamas would be happy to kill them. The public pays for police because we have no choice. We have to pay taxes. But, Americans don't have to excuse atrocities committed by Hamas.
Delete@10:09 PM
DeleteI'm sorry, but this shtetl-wisdom of yours is ridiculous, David.
There's no such thing as "Iran's hatred of Jews". Iranian Jews have been living in Persia for millennia, and still do.
Just like Jewish Palestinians lived in Palestine. And practicing Judaism Iraqis lived in Iraq. It was just fine everywhere in the Middle East -- before Zionists came from Europe and fucked it all up.
You think you (and your 'identity') are so smart, but being smart entails foreseeing the results of your own action. Yes, proudly announcing armed to the teeth militant ethnocentric settler-colony -- serving as the largest American unsinkable aircraft carrier! -- "The Jewish State" will make some people in the neighborhood (and elsewhere) dislike all things "Jewish". What did you expect?
David didn’t expect anything. Zionism began before he was born.
DeleteNow, he should look at the results and withdraw his support.
Zionism that began before David was born was not a problem. Just a garden variety small quasi-fascist (as 'palingenetic ultranationalism') movement. It wasn't popular, or particularly militant. Just a few cranks.
DeleteIt's only after the war, when David was born already, it had become, for obvious reasons, a powerful force. Powerful force that both superstrates (the US and the USSR) tried to ride, for their own geopolitical purposes. Hence the 1947 UNGA Palestine partition resolution.
Bob's comments today are unusually useful but drawn out with his customary patronizing tone about all of humanity and obvious observations about it's frailty. One can sympathize, for a change, with the media's struggle to present balance in such a situation, when most want to
ReplyDeletehear only the side they side with.
It's something like when Bob tries to let Trump or one of his awful followers off the hook by saying "there but for the grace of God (the agnostic Bob makes a substitution here, but its the same thing) go I"
DeleteWell, it's a perfectly wise and noble sentiment,
and certainly few souls are degraded enough to want
to BE Trump, but it's so obviously, comically
inadequate to the situation, he makes it sound
pious and brain addled.
Critically, it always ignores the damages done
to Trump's victims. As those on the Israeli side
often ignore the damages to the Palestinians,
and vice versa.
The hard work for a media critic in this
situation would be to call out selective reporting,
and take a stance on the contentious matter of
who is lying, or lying by omission. You are going
to get called a lot of names, perhaps to little or
no end. It's much easier to lean back and pass
judgement on all humanity without going too
deeply into it.
Janet Yellen says we can "certainly" afford to support both Israel and Ukraine.
ReplyDeletehttps://news.sky.com/story/we-can-certainly-afford-two-wars-us-treasury-secretary-says-12985335
Janet Yellen sounds like someone who loves Americans. Unlike the Republican House, who hates Americans so much, they called them a a bunch of deadbeats, who can't even afford to pay their bills.
DeleteYellen took WH spokesman, John Kirby, to the wood shed, not Republicans.
DeleteBut we're under a crushing burden of debt! We can't afford Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid! We can't afford Obamacare! We can't afford to forgive student debt! We can't afford to help desperate immigrants!
DeleteWar? Heck yes. We can always afford that.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/rDsxjSUr2jU
DeleteRedirect:
DeleteOperation Fanny Clap
Priority:
Medium High
Of Human Bondage has nothing whatsoever to do with anything else Somerby has written today. It is not surprising he didn't get past the title of the book. It is worth reading, but why not cite the phrase from the Bible directly instead of laundering it through this author's book name?
ReplyDeleteWell, Casablanca is something of a stretch too, but whatever.
DeleteYes, it was totally a stretch. Why is it even necessary to throw in these references?
DeleteI am neither Freud nor Joyce Brothers. I am Corby.
ReplyDeleteThe Israel-Hamas war is impacting the global power balance, benefiting Russia, China, and Iran, as they capitalize on American distraction. It is a very troubling event that makes President Biden's decision to engage in a prolonged and intricate proxy conflict in Ukraine seem like even more of a misstep.
ReplyDeleteThe US did not "decide" to engage in a proxy war, Russia invaded Ukraine and we are committed to resist that invasion by our alliances with NATO. Supporting Ukraine against Russia is a no-brainer. The point of Russia encouraging Iran to heat up the Middle East is to distract the US from Ukraine so that Russia can win its attempt to annex Ukraine. Russia knows that the US is committed to defend Israel. Biden did not initiate any of this -- these are longstanding alliances.
DeleteTrump's collusion with Russia has made the right wing collaborators with Russia against US interests, traitors in effect. There should be unity in the US behind both Ukraine and Israel. It is outrageous that a political party would side with a foreign enemy such as Russia, against American allies (by treaty and by history). This different stances on our obligations to our allies will drive the gulf between the right and left wing in this country even wider.
Unfortunately that is the party line that propagandists would have you believe. At the core of this debate are two significant U.S. actions. First, the United States had expressed its intent to expand NATO to include Ukraine and Georgia. This prospect of NATO encroachment was viewed by Russia as a direct threat for generations, long before Putin, as it would essentially encircle Russia with NATO member states in the Black Sea region. This geopolitical maneuvering had been a longstanding concern in the lead-up to the conflict. Russian leaders had claimed for decades they viewed NATO expansion as an existential threat.
DeleteSecondly, the United States played a role in the toppling of Ukraine's pro-Russian President, Viktor Yanukovych, in February 2014. This event resulted in a leadership change that favored a more anti-Russian stance, further fueling tensions in the region.
The conflict did not spontaneously erupt in February 2022, as implied by some propagandistic authorities. Instead, the roots of this crisis stretch back over a span of years, marked by escalating tensions and complex geopolitical dynamics.
If the roots of this war were understood accurately by the American public, the Biden Administration would have to answer for spending $100 billion so far and leaving the trail of death in Ukraine with nothing to show for it. It would also shed light on President Biden's involvement in the conflict, both in the overthrow of Yanukovych and his historical support for the military-industrial complex, as well as his early advocacy for NATO enlargement.
Hence propagandists work over time to make well intentioned citizens like yourself believe the affair is a deterministic no-brainer.
Nothing to show? For 5% of our defense budget Ukraine defenders have destroyed over half of Russia's military. Putin has made clear Ukraine is the first stop in restoring the USSR, which would now include NATO countries. Also Ukraine looks to be getting the better of the war, and obviously the citizens are committed to expelling the invaders.
DeleteNot one word of that is true, unfortunately.
DeleteDuring 2010-2013, Yanukovych pushed neutrality, in line with Ukrainian public opinion. The U.S. worked covertly to overthrow Yanukovych, as captured vividly in the tape of then U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and U.S. Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt planning the post-Yanukovych government weeks before the violent overthrow of Yanukovych. Nuland makes clear on the call that she was coordinating closely with then Vice President Biden and his national security advisor Jake Sullivan, the same Biden-Nuland-Sullivan team now at the center of U.S. policy vis-Ã -vis Ukraine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoW75J5bnnE
Well-intentioned citizens like yourself will just have to go through the same process from denial to reality as was taken by most of us with Vietnam or Iraq. It's the exact same regime change playbook and the exact same players executing it.
DeleteYou can never say you weren't told.
Hey, Mr. Sachs.
Deletehttps://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/09/01/joint-statement-on-the-u-s-ukraine-strategic-partnership/
DeleteThe Iraq War was about the American people's insatiable appetite for vengeance, no matter how many innocent people it killed.
DeleteI'd hardly call Putin invading Ukraine in a dick-measuring move, the same thing.
Ukraine and Iraq wars were both long planned and hoped for regime change operations. The people's vengeance was what allowed the Iraq war to proceed under a blatantly false pretext. Ukraine has been planned since the nineties - maybe before. The reason you feel that way is because you haven't researched the matter at all.
DeleteAll of what I'm saying will be slowly revealed to you over time.
Delete11;31,
DeleteAre you suggesting that I didn't love Saddam Hussein more than I loved American soldiers? Because that's not what "the Others" Bob wants me to listen to were saying.
I'm not suggesting nor do I care anything about you.
Delete"nor do I care anything about you"
DeleteWhoa, 7:10 AM, that's horrible. This will amplify 12:47 AM's self-pity beyond what's bearable. Have mercy, please.
7:10's lack of effort in putting together a cogent argument supporting his beliefs was the giveaway that they don't care anything about 12:47.
DeleteSay what you will about he Republican Party making a sex crime enabler the leader of the House of Representatives, but you can't argue it isn't on brand.
ReplyDeleteWhich journalists were shocked? No names were listed here. Were they maybe outraged instead?
ReplyDeleteIs Somerby saying the instructor was guilty of poor “moral discernment” because he/she was overly emotional? (“when one is dominated by emotion, rational thought is impossible”). How do we know that in this case? It sounds as though the instructor had a long-held belief about the Israelis being “colonizers”, and planned ahead for the class exercise. If Somerby believes what the instructor did showed poor “moral discernment”, doesn’t that mean he thinks what the instructor did was wrong, which may be the same thing those unnamed major pundits were saying? Can’t he just say that?
More and more Republican voters are moving away from RFK, Jr's candidacy, because they feel he isn't enough of a bigot to vote for.
ReplyDeleteI am neither Freud nor Brothers. I am Corby.
ReplyDelete