THURSDAY, OCTOBER 19, 2023
Things we may not know: We Americans! Even (or especially) within our blue tribe, we may sometimes overestimate the things we know and care about.
It's been a while since we were asked to think about the Gaza Strip. The leading authority on the Strip offers this overview of its population:
Most people in the Gaza Strip are descendants of refugees who fled or were expelled from the area that became Israel after the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. Around 600,000 Gazans live in Gaza's 8 refugee camps.
Those statements are sourced to the CIA and to the BBC. Here are some population figures, dating to 1970:
Population, Gaza Strip
1970: 340,000
1980: 460,000
1990: 650,000
2000: 1,130,000
2010: 1,600,000
2014: 1,820,000
2022: 2,375,000
As you know if you watch cable news, we rarely think about the Strip until events intrude.
Alfred Hitchcock's Carlotta Valdes contributed to this discussion.
Long ago there was a kind of Zionism under which Jewish people would move to Palestine and live peacefully and respectfully alongside the indigenous people.
ReplyDeleteThen there was another kind of Zionism, which established a Jewish state and displaced non-Jews.
The second type won out. The first type was forgotten. Current events are the bitter fruit of the second type of Zionism.
Caesar -- Israel's Arab neighbors began attacking Israel long before Israel displaced any indigenous non-Jews. So, that displacement wasn't the fundamental cause of the antipathy.
DeleteThere was conflict even in the earlist years under the British. The UN established. the Israeli state as a refuge for displaced Jews in Europe and the Middle East. The war started the next day snd was lost by the Palestinians and the Arab nations who invaded on their behalf.
DeleteWhy do so many Palestinians still live in refugee camps? Why haven't they gone out and built an economy. They have received large amounts of money from the US and Europe, so the resources were there.
ReplyDeleteHow do you leave an open air prison? How do you build a prosperous economy when you are under siege for over thirty years? How can you in good consciousness blame the victims?
Delete@7:15 What siege are you talking about? In 2005, 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip were unilaterally dismantled and Israeli settlers and army evacuated from inside the Gaza Strip. For the last 18 years, the Palestinians have had Gaza all to themselves with large amounts of foreign aid flowing in.
DeleteIsrael wasn't attacking Gaza. On the contrary Gaza continued to attack Israel in various ways including massive numbers of rockets aimed at civilian areas.
Do you think that all the money Palestinians spent on armaments rather than an economic infrastructure might be part of the answer?
Israel built a prosperous economy while under siege.
Delete"Do you think that all the money Palestinians spent on armaments rather than an economic infrastructure might be part of the answer?"
DeleteI couldn't begin to speculate. How would I really know the complications they are facing? I live in a country with a prosperous economy that is also deeply immoral, corrupt, selfish and hypocritical.
Speculating why Palestinians have not built Costcos and become soulless, obese consumer robots is last thing on my mind. YRMV.
David, if you could wave a magic wand, would you use it to commit genocide against the Palestinian people? Could you morally justify it?
Delete@10:14 Would I commit genocide against the Palestinian people? Of course not.
DeleteHowever, suppose you could ask every Palestinian whether they would commit genocide against every Israeli Jew. I suspect a large percentage would say that they would.
You feel the Palestinian people are morally on par with the KKK?
DeleteI can arrange a three way call between you and me and a Palestinian organization in your area to discuss their genocidal intentions if you would like. Let's ask them directly. Are you interested?
DeleteAnonymouse 10:30pm, how are your Hamas pals?
DeleteWhat do you mean?
DeletePalestinian does not mean someone belongs to or supports Hamas. That is a nasty remark Cecelia.
DeleteAnonymouse 11:55am, the Anonymouse 10:30pm did not designate the Palestinian organization and the offer to set up a phone call should make one leery.
DeleteConsider it rhetorical, not a literal offer.
DeleteNo, I mean it literally. I will pick a local organization like the Palestinian American Women's Association or the Palestine Children's Relief Fund and ask for a representative to discuss their thoughts about genocide of Israelis. We can communicate anonymously through an app like Signal.
Delete(David's claim may be entirely correct.)
DeleteThe world's leading expert:
ReplyDeletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight
off topic - I had lunch with my granddaughters, a sophomore at Oberlin College. I asked her about politics on campus.
ReplyDeleteShe said every single person she knows -- student, faculty or administrator -- is liberal. There are no conservatives, at no one publicly admitting to being conservative. She said the student body generally support the Palestinians over the Israelis.
They hate Hitler. However, so do we.
DeleteThat’s all it ever takes.
“They hate Hitler. However, so do we.”
DeleteExcept for those fine people marching with Tiki torches in Charlottesville chanting “Jews will not replace us.” It’s just a mystery who they supported as president.
In 2021 the Jewish Electoral Institute polled American Jews and found that 58% favored limiting US military funding to Israel based upon their treatment of Palestinians and their settlement policy, with a third equating it with racism. In the 2 years since, Israeli violence against Palestinians on the West Bank has markedly escalated. The Israeli policy of building settlements in Palestinian occupied territory has been widely condemned in both Europe and by the US. Is it any surprise that a majority of non Jewish citizens, especially young and educated, view the Palestinians as oppressed? Almost certainly if the poll mentioned above had been conducted just prior to this war, the numbers would have been skewed further against Israel, considering the illegitimacy conferred upon the far right wing policies of Netanyahu by many, including Israelis. So I am not surprised that young well educated people empathize with the Palestinians and find fault with the Israelis, given that their settlement policies have resulted in escalating violence against Palestinians, have been widely condemned by Western governments, and are disapproved of by a majority of Jewish Americans if that survey is representative.This does not justify the atrocities by Hamas, and certainly the vocal support for Palestinians in some Universities after this terrorism is not useful .
DeleteThe question regarding DIC's niece and Oberlin College that is unanswered here is why or if it should be surprising that a small liberal arts college in the Midwest that specializes in music has a highly predominant liberal minded student body? If the environment is hostile to her beliefs she can transfer elsewhere. There are some openings in New College in Florida and an administration that will gladly take a transfer.
DeleteDavid passed along his sense of victimhood to his niece. How thoughtful.
DeleteCecelia, if you were alive in the 1930s
Deleteyou probably would have attended the
Republican pro German (as in Nazi)
Rallies.
10:40 - That’s ugly.
DeleteNot so far-fetched, Dog.
Deletehttps://www.amazon.com/Prequel-American-Fight-Against-Fascism/dp/0593444515/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3M26NSM38N3OC&keywords=rachel+maddow+new+book&qid=1697814687&sprefix=rachel+maddow%2Caps%2C336&sr=8-1
I think you should scurry away and hide among the other mice.
Deletenot much for american history, dog?
DeleteAs a group, I think we should all agree that suggesting that someone is a Nazi sympathizer is beyond the pale.
DeleteHitler is one of the most reviled figures in history.
DeleteEven people who voted for trump twice, going on 3 times, dog?
DeleteI disagree. With the resurgence of white supremacists in this country, admirers of Hitler who want to emulate the Third Reich, suggesting that someone is a Nazi sympathizer is not only a matter of fact, but so would suggesting someone is an actual Nazi be a matter of fact and not a slur.
DeleteI think the comment about Cecelia is valid because she is supporting the equivalent of those 1930s sympathizers in their modern incarnation.
And don't forget that Ivana said that Trump had a copy of Hitler's speeches on his nightstand and liked to reread them. Trump doesn't only admire present-day dictators. And if Trump is like that, why not Cecelia? All we know about anyone here is their words but those words matter and they have implications.
I can hardly believe you’re willing to defend such drive-by smears.
DeleteHow about you, mh? Do you feel it’s appropriate to smear Cecelia as a Nazi sympathizer? Or will you condemn it unconditionally, as I do?
DeleteDogface, @11:50 explicitly said that the statement is a matter of fact, not a smear. You haven't addressed any of the arguments raised by 11:50. I can't believe you are ignoring those valid points and continuing to claim that Cecelia is being smeared.
DeleteHow can you condemn something that exists, as both Nazi's and white supremacist "sympathizers" do? And how can you resolve something that is a hypothetical raised about the past "unconditionally" as you put it? We have Nazis today and Cecelia has allied herself with the side that both protects them and advances their cause. Refusing to consider the merits of the claim about Cecelia and calling for it to be unconditionally banned sounds a tad defensive to me.
If Nazis are so abhorrent, why is the right wing giving them support, as Trump himself did?
What say you, mh?
Deletemh is too smart to engage in a doggie street brawl with you, but for some reason you do not want to talk to anyone else who takes you seriously
Deletewhy?
I'm not asking for a brawl, I'm asking for a stand.
Deletemh - Do you feel that smearing Cecelia as a Nazi sympathizer is appropriate, or not?
Unamused I did not say Oberlin was Predominently liberal. I said Totally. My granddaughter will never be able to debate her beliefs with people on the other side. That is a lost opportunity to develop critical thinking skills.
DeleteAbove post from David in Cal
DeleteDavid, you cannot call Oberlin "totally liberal" without interviewing everyone. There may be conservatives who are quiet about their views because they feel outnumbered. It could be 60-40 and you wouldn't know. If your granddaughter is keeping silent about her beliefs, she is missing an educational opportunity. The professors should be keeping other students off her back and ensuring respect for ALL opinions in their classes. She should complain to the Dept Chair if that isn't happening. But she should also understand that expressing one's views does not include having others agree with her.
DeleteSaying that the Oberlin student body is totally liberal and that your niece is part of the student body would place her in that category, David. It is highly doubtful that there are no conservatives roaming the halls there but if the atmosphere is onerous it is time to recognize a mistake and attend to the difficult task of transferring to another institution.
DeleteI’m sorry Bob didn’t know anything about
ReplyDeletethe dangers the hard right in the US and
Israel were creating in that part of the world
But some of us did in fact know. If you
go through life horrified you might
offend Fox viewers, you might miss
quite a bit.
Corby reminded me that Zeke Emanuel’s brother Rahm Emanuel is the US ambassador to Japan. I told Corby that’s off topic.
ReplyDeleteMao, I’m not Corby. I know it gets hard
Deleteto keep track of things when you are
feeble minded.
I am Mao.
DeleteSomerby, on Wednesday:
ReplyDelete“it seems to us that every supporter of Israel, from President Biden right on down, ought to start their statements about this matter as that unnamed organization did:
[I OR WE] believe in peace, equality, and freedom for all Palestinians and Israelis.”
Joe Biden said this tonight:
“As I said in Israel, as hard as it is, we cannot give up on peace. We cannot give up on a two-state solution. Israel and Palestinians equally deserve to live in safety, dignity and peace”
Thank you, President Biden.
Your turn, Bob.
President Biden’s speech writers must read the blog, huh?
Delete@8:56 AM - also believes in unicorns.
DeleteThis pertains to a discussion in the previous post.
ReplyDeleteRemembering that Somerby and Gore were roommates:
“Gore was in college during the era of anti Vietnam War protests. He was against that war, but he disagreed with the tactics of the student protest movement. He thought that it was silly and juvenile to use a private university as a venue to vent anger at the war. He and his friends did not participate in Harvard demonstrations. John Tyson, a former roommate, recalled that "We distrusted these movements a lot ... We were a pretty traditional bunch of guys, positive for civil rights and women's rights but formal, transformed by the social revolution to some extent but not buying into something we considered detrimental to our country."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore
Gore went on to serve in Vietnam.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletePresident Biden has now traveled to two war zones (Ukraine and Israel) not controlled by the US military. It is unprecedented.
ReplyDeleteBut did you know that he is old and feeble? If not, Somerby will tell you.
If the Palestinians want to be treated better, it doesn't help to murder innocent people and decapitate babies.
ReplyDeleteYou’re right, that’s a bad tactic.
DeleteCorby is well-treated and adorable.
DeleteCupcake Wars is an innocuous entertainment. Why imply that if you enjoy such a show then you don't care how many people live in Gaza?
ReplyDeleteI don’t like this kind of stuff:
ReplyDeletehttps://jabberwocking.com/apple-cancels-jon-stewart-over-china/
I am not Corby.
Maybe Somerby's point is that people living in Gaza are increasing their population despite all the killing.
ReplyDeleteIn contrast, when the American colonizers expanded their territory and put native Americans onto reservations, their numbers greatly decreased.
DeleteOr maybe Somerby's point is "what's the big deal about losing a few thousand people among millions?" Or maybe his point is that the huge increase in population is causing resource-related tensions? That one doesn't hold water though because the fighting has been going on since the beginning, when there was plenty of everything to go around. It would also be minimizing the religious motivations on all sides.
See what happens when Somerby writes a mysterious essay that never clearly expresses his point? Any interpretation is possible. But Dogface is upset because people in comments don't use nyms!
I don't think it's accurate to say that I'm upset that people don't use nyms; I think it's cowardly. It's something that facilitates smearing and hiding.
DeleteA nym is not an actual name. Your nym entirely conceals who you are in real life. Yet it doesn't conceal a thing about your personality, your command of language, your knowledge of current events and history, your politics and your disrespect for others here. You are doing that same "hiding" and those who post as anonymous are just as obvious in these respects as you are. Someone can use a different nym for every comment and still be using a nym, you idiot. There is nothing magic about a nym and no one here wants you to be able to stalk and attack commenters you disagree with.
DeleteAddress the content of people's comments or don't. But you don't get to attack people on a personal basis here. If that frustrates you, maybe you should think about why.
Dogface, you are definitely upset because people don't use nyms. Own it, Dog!
DeleteAnon 12:36 dragged me into this; it seems I'm being stalked by mice, rather than vice versa. And you call me an "idiot" while bemoaning personal attacks. Go figure.
DeleteRight wingers always seem to consider themselves the victims.
DeleteMaybe the ambiguity of Somerby's statements makes this a rorshach test in which commenters project their own inner selves? An analyst might say that Dogface George picked his name because of his bulldog tenacity. He grabs and bites other commenters and never lets go, never over any issue but because anonymous commenters don't have names. An analyst would have a field day with that.
ReplyDeleteAnalysts would have much more to say about regular posters who never acquire a nym.
DeleteI suggest “Carlotta Valdes” for you, Anonymouse 12:25pm.
Be careful. Somerby likes Carlotta Valdes. I wouldn't want to trample on his fantasy. Also, unlike you, I am not willing to misgender myself.
DeleteNot a rodent, then you should have gone with the nym Norman Bates.
DeleteI am using a nyn. Now you want to dictate which one? It is never enough with you people.
DeleteNot a rodent, it was a suggestion, but this from someone who tries to “dictate” my gender?
DeleteI don’t care, but Hypocrisy, thy name is Anonymouse. .
You are dictating your own gender. We object to you trying to dictate other people's gender.
DeleteNot a human, I knew that this is the point you want to make, however, I don’t dictate people’s gender.
DeleteIf someone has a penis, I say he’s a male, and if someone has a vagina, I say she’s a woman. People are free to call themselves anything they wish and to dress accordingly. I am free to call them by their biological gender.
Damn, CC, yet another sick burn.
ReplyDelete12:25 - It annoys me a little that mice don't use nyms, mostly because it facilitates hitting and hiding, but what annoys me the most is that these mice persist in criticizing Somerby for things they imagine he said or didn't say.
Nobody is "hiding." Their comments appear for all to see. Your belief that people should be identifiable facilitates bullying and that is undesirable in a forum where all people should have free expression.
DeleteSomerby is a big boy. He chooses to write and he allows public comment without blocking anyone except commercial spam. If he can tolerate criticism, you should be able to tolerate it too on his behalf.
Hey, it's a free country, do what you want. But, if you don't use a nym, you will lose a little of my respect, that's all.
DeleteBut I only lost your respect because I have a nym.
DeleteYou feel my comments are "idiotic." So by using a nym, I'm doing you a favor. You can see my nym and just pass it by, saving time.
DeleteIt would be nice if you'd return the favor.
Anonymouse 1:34pm, how am I able to gauge your consistency and soundness in thinking if you are just one more anonymouse?
DeleteThink about the comment not the person.
DeleteDon’t forget that being an anonymouse means that you’re not accountable for your statements from one post to the next.
ReplyDeleteAnd yet you are completely unresponsive to any and all attempts to hold you accountable for anything. How do you think people using other nyms would be any different than you are?
DeleteAnonymouse, you can hold me accountable by name and post any day. What you must do in order for that to be meaningful is to be logical, rather than merely angry and misleading about it. As you are with Bob and with David.
DeleteI hold you accountable for never discussing the essay of the day or anything substantive. I can do that without even knowing your nym. But knowing your nym tells me nothing whatsoever about who you are.
DeleteAnonymouse 1:24pm, you remark that Somerby rightly tolerates criticism (and I would add -very nasty character assaults), but you’re scared of bullying?
ReplyDeleteWhat does anyone have to gain by assisting you guys in tracking and harrassing them? This demand for nyms is silly because the more you bully the anonymous commenters, the less likely anyone is to want to help you do it by name. You guys are a fucking joke.
DeleteHow can anyone track a nym? How would I track Tom, Dick, or Harriet?
Delete"You guys are a fucking joke."
DeleteWho is bullying whom?
Cecelia, you track the comments.
DeleteAnonymouse 3:19pm, I read comments. I don’t know what you mean by tracking them.
DeletePeople who are likely to be the same person tend to have the same writing style, the same kinds of complains repeated, the same interests and concerns, a consistent political point of view. By noticing these things, you are know who is writing what without having a consistent nym. People are more consistent than names that can be changed at any moment. People cannot change their personalities or these other aspects of their commenting because they are who they are (for better or worse).
Delete7:04 - You seem sensible, but are you also the Anon who called me a "fucking joke"? I really do not know. And that, from my point of view, is part of the problem.
DeleteWhat does it matter if someone who you do not know and will never meet calls you a "fucking joke"? Is your self-esteem so low that you care what some rando on the internet says?
DeleteIf I call you a name, you know it the next time we interact. If you call me a name, I don’t know it the next time. You’d be hitting and hiding. And I find that cowardly.
Delete