THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 21, 2024
The possible reasons go on and on: Just for the record, the madness has always been general. The madness is bred in the bone.
We actually aren't "the rational animal"—and that's even true Over Here, within our own Blue America.
Irrational conduct belongs to us too! Such conduct has been widely observed as we Blues have tried to answer this question:
Why in the world would anyone have voted for Candidate Trump?
For the record, we ourselves didn't vote for Trump. We voted for Candidate Harris.
A whole lot of people did vote for Trump. Here's where the total currently stands, according to The Cook Political Report:
Nationwide popular vote (to date), 2024
Candidate Trump: 76,898,763 (49.87%)
Candidate Harris: 74,391,431 (48.25%)
Eventually, the record will show that more than 77 million people voted for Candidate Trump.
Most likely, that will be slightly less than half the electorate. But it's still a lot of people, spread across the vast expanse of the planet's fourth largest nation.
A lot of people voted for Trump—but why in the world did they do that? Here's what happened when Thom Hartmann, a good, decent person, answered a version of that question on C-Span's Washington Journal.
The moderator posted a graphic. Her question then went like this:
MODERATOR (11/17/24): I'll go back to something you mentioned earlier. You mentioned that, since the 1960s, the Democrats have been the party that supports racial minorities, according to your assessment. But also, I want to look at this chart here about the distribution of white voters in particular.
The Democrats have not won the vote among white Americans since 1964. Overwhelmingly over the years, white voters have voted Republican, and Democrats have lost support among white voters even since Barack Obama in 2008. And what do you think that means for the future of the party and the party's dynamics?
To see this full exchange, you can click this link. After that, you should skip ahead to the eight-minute mark.
That was the moderator's question. For the record, the chart showed Candidate Obama receiving 43% of the white vote in 2008, with Candidate Biden receiving 42% of the white vote in 2020.
As the chart's fine print disclosed, those numbers were estimates, based on (imprecise) exit polls. According to this year's exit polls, Candidate Harris received 41% of the white vote—and yes, allowing for possible errors in these estimates, that's a drop from the percentage Obama received in 2008.
Indeed, according to this year's exit polls, white voters favored Candidate Trump over Candidate Harris, 57%-41%. We wouldn't call that margin "overwhelming," which may not be what the moderator meant. But that's where the numbers stand, such as the numbers are.
As the Republican candidate always does, Candidate Trump did win a clear majority of the white vote this year. For the record, he also won a fair amount of non-white votes—and more than 77 million individuals voted for him nationwide.
Again, why in the world did people do that? Hartmann gave a lengthy answer to the moderator's question. Below, you see where the answer began, and you can also see where it ended:
HARTMANN (continuing directly): Well, I think what that reflects is the deep racism that is still extant among white people in America, you know. And certainly, the Trump presidency, and even his successful campaign in 2016, frankly shocked me.
[...]
I don't have an explanation beyond for this very clear racial division which has existed since 1964, beyond just the shocking reality that at least half of America, and arguably a little more than that, is just deeply racist.
Why did people vote for Candidate Trump? As you can see, Hartmann started by talking about "white America." By the end of his statement, he was talking about "at least half of America, and arguably a little more than that."
By the end of his reply, he seemed to be talking about Trump voters in general, not just those who are white. But he seemed to have only one explanation for what happened this year:
It isn't just that Trump's many voters apparently had to be racist. This candidate's voters are deeply racist, this good, decent person now said.
He offered no other possible reason for all those millions of votes. According to Hartmann, "at least half of America, and arguably a little more than that, is just deeply racist."
Thom Hartmann's a good, decent person. Still, we'd say that his answer to that question comes to us straight outta the illogic which has always been bred in the bone.
Also, straight outta the tribal madness which has always dogged the earth.
It comes to us from Salem Village. It comes to us from the plains outside the towering walls of Troy. It comes to us from the place where tribal Storyline takes control and sensible assessment ends.
In our view, it's an amazingly unintelligent statement—and we'd say a recent statement by Michael Moore is perhaps a second cousin to what Hartmann said.
Moore's statement was made in a Substack essay. When Mediaite reported Moore's statement, their report carried this headline: Michael Moore Rages at Americans For ‘Evil Deeds’ Over Trump Victory: ‘We Are NOT a Good People.’
That's how it seemed to Mediaite. Headline included, here's how Moore's essay begins:
Hey, If You Can Kill 20 Million Native Americans, Enslave 12 Million Africans, and Let Biden Fund the Slaughter of 40,000 Women, Children and Elderly...
If you stop and think about it, we’ve come up with a lot of doozies in our history. Like the genocide of 20 million Native Americans. Or the enslavement of 12 million kidnapped Africans. Or us invading Vietnam and killing 4 million Asian people for no reason at all.
We are not a good people. We have a non-stop cavalcade, a sordid laundry list of evil deeds that led us directly to last week...
Briefly, let's be fair. If you read Moore's full essay, or if you simply look at his headline, you'll see him inferentially suggesting possible reasons for Trump's win—possible reasons which go beyond the alleged "deep racism" of "at least half of America."
For example, some voters may have been affected by the way President Biden allegedly funded the slaughter of thousands of women and children. That might have affected somebody's vote, with "deep racism" left to the side.
At any rate:
We are not a good people, Moore declared, basing his logic on events which took place when no one who voted in this election was actually alive. We Blues! We'd call that statement a logical mess, but also a political disaster—a type of political disaster we Blues sometimes seem to enjoy.
We'd also call it profoundly unwise. But then, what else is new?
Then again, as we noted yesterday, there was Roxane Gay in last Sunday's New York Times. From the highest platform in Blue America, this is what she said:
Enough
[...]
Mr. Trump’s voters are granted a level of care and coddling that defies credulity and that is afforded to no other voting bloc. Many of them believe the most ludicrous things: babies being aborted after birth and children going to school as one gender and returning home surgically altered as another gender even though these things simply do not happen. Time and again, we hear the wild lies these voters believe and we act as if they are sharing the same reality as ours, as if they are making informed decisions about legitimate issues. We act as if they get to dictate the terms of political engagement on a foundation of fevered mendacity.
We must refuse to participate in a mass delusion. We must refuse to accept that the ignorance on display is a congenital condition rather than a choice. All of us should refuse to pretend that any of this is normal and that these voters are just woefully misunderstood and that if only the Democrats addressed their economic anxiety, they might vote differently. While they are numerous, that does not make them right.
These are adults, so let us treat them like adults. Let us acknowledge that they want to believe nonsense and conjecture. They want to believe anything that affirms their worldview. They want to celebrate a leader who allows them to nurture their basest beliefs about others. The biggest challenge of our lifetime will be figuring out how to combat the American willingness to embrace flagrant misinformation and bigotry.
Roxane Gay is a good, decent person. In her world, Trump voters can't simply be wrong in their overall assessment. They can't be wrong on balance.
In her world, Trump voters have chosen to be mistaken and wrong. Inevitably, we return to Hartmann's claim:
Those 77 million Trump voters have chosen to embrace bigotry.
Major thought leaders in Blue America reason in such sweeping ways a great deal of the time. Almost surely, these familiar screeds help explain why some people voted for Trump.
Why did people vote for Candidate Trump? We voted for Candidate Harris ourselves, but the reasons which cut the other way go on and on and on and on, and then they continue from there.
Quite routinely, we Blues seem unable to grasp this fact. That says something very important about Us.
Why did people vote for Trump? Exactly as it ever was, the Others are evil—we aren't!
Tomorrow: Why might people have voted for Trump? A return to our starter list
ReplyDelete"Why would anyone have voted for Trump?"
To make America great again!
And to kick liberal idiots out of the government, of course. To drain the fuckin' swamp.
Like he did last term?
DeleteI suppose you have already bought your $1500 Trump guitar? I suspect Trump voters love the grifting. They can't wait to see what they will be able to buy next. Are these being made in America, so American workers benefit? That hasn't been reported yet, but other items have been made in places like China, so perhaps not.
Trump is filling his administration with neocons, neoliberals, unqualified clowns, corrupt cronies, and sexual predators.
DeleteI completely regret my vote, and so does every Trump voter I know.
Thank god for the filibuster and the 2026 midterms.
The 11:10 AM incel left out returning women to the kitchen and maternity ward where they belong.
DeleteCareful -- these guys may not understand that incel is not a compliment.
DeleteOther than the non-stop raping. the way Trump stole funds from a children's cancer charity is his most Right-wing virtue signaling.
Delete"Just for the record, the madness has always been general. The madness is bred in the bone.
ReplyDeleteWe actually aren't "the rational animal"—and that's even true Over Here, within our own Blue America."
Somerby repeats this idea often, but it isn't true based on cognitive science. Somerby's misunderstanding arises from the finding that everyday human reasoning does not follow the rules of formal logic, as developed by philosophers and mathematicians for proving theorems. But that doesn't mean that people are illogical or cannot reason. Human reasoning is different and it is not "bred in the bone" but comes from survival needs in hostile environments (including social interactions with enemies). Human reasoning is probabilistic, not absolute. Outside of conscious awareness, humans notice and calculate likelihoods or odds of events happening, in order to guide behavior toward that which will ensure survival under adverse circumstances. In modern contexts, this may be called intuition or common sense, but it has a sound grounding in probability.
Part of the confusion about this arises because when humans use their conscious thought processes to estimate the probabilities involved in a situation, they are often grossly wrong. Yet when they are guided by unconscious thinking (as when we just act without reflection) we are highly accurate. This makes sense, because humans throughout time have had to make decisions under time pressure, which doesn't allow sufficient time to calculate or engage in formal reasoning. They must act quickly to save themselves. That is how human reasoning is optimized.
We can and do apply formal reasoning processes using conscious thought, when trained to do so. It isn't as if we cannot reason. But untrained people make errors while doing this, and that is Somerby's excuse for claiming that people are irrational and cannot think well. If Somerby's appraisal were true, humanity would have died out a long time ago. Our ability to reason is one of the traits that has enabled people to survive where animals cannot.
Problem solving is a different domain of cognitive processing. People are excellent at that too, as should be obvious from the progress made by humanity in shaping its own environment and living conditions throughout history, not just with the creation of modern technology.
If you compare human thinking to machine thinking, you will see the advantages that all people have over machines, even AI (which is dependent on examples and correction by humans).
It is frustrating that Somerby continues this blather without ever reading anything on the subject. It isn't as though there were no studies of human cognition. His stubborn insistence that people think badly is perhaps motivated by his need to blame others for the state of the world, but he should be seeking motives and examining contexts of behavior, not making untrue statements about humanity.
Well said, I’ve said the same here many times.
DeleteI think the point is that while human reasoning evolved for survival, it still produces irrational outcomes that are often based on tribal allegiances.
DeleteTribal allegiances are a survival mechanism. Doing what others do is safer than going your own unproven way.
DeleteIsn't the point the irrational outcomes?
Delete"For the record, we ourselves didn't vote for Trump. We voted for Candidate Harris."
ReplyDeleteToo bad Somerby didn't also support her. She might have won with more enthusiastic support from guys like Somerby. Recall that quote:
"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph in the world is that good men do nothing..."
Somerby took that a step further and actively criticized Harris every time he got the opportunity, which was pretty much every day. He damned her with faint praise, such as that she has a great smile, while demanding more and more specific answers to questions she had already answered, suggesting she didn't know her stuff.
Somerby loves to blame Democrats for specious things, such as too much wokeness, but he doesn't look in the mirror when blaming the Democrats for Trump's victory. More Dems might have gone to the polls with urging from Somerby, who has a small forum here but people who may still listen to his opinions. He misused his pulpit and that is on him.
Nobody takes Somerby seriously, his posts are used as a jumping off point towards better discourse.
Delete"Eventually, the record will show that more than 77 million people voted for Candidate Trump."
ReplyDeleteOn what basis does Somerby claim this? He is currently short and the most remaining votes to be counted are in CA, a very blue state.
When you are dealing with very large numbers, you don't get to round up to 77 million, just to strengthen your own argument.
Trump is only 100K or so votes short, so even though most remaining votes are on the left coast, Trump should still be able to garner another 100K. He'll still be way short of what Biden received in 2020, which suggests that a lot of people stayed home.
DeleteConsidering population growth, Trump is on par or getting slightly less support than he did in 2020, when he badly lost.
DeleteHarris lost this election primarily due to low turnout among Dems.
He was 300K short based on the most recent figures I could find today using Google.
DeleteThe essence of Somerby's essay today is that white people didn't vote for Trump because of racism, but they had many other good reasons. No one disputes that white voters do not give such reasons to justify their votes, but is that why they really support Trump? That's an entirely different matter.
ReplyDeleteIn this case, the supposed good reasons for voting for Trump make no sense, and that is why Somerby keeps claiming there is madness and people are irrational. But if you recognize that these answers are what Freud called a screen, keeping the real reasons hidden (even from the voter himself perhaps), then the possibility that racism motivated those white votes becomes more obvious. Why would someone need to produce a socially acceptable "screen" answer if racism were the norm? And wouldn't the answers given make more sense if they were true and not manufactured to hide voters' racism?
Somerby never bothers to examine the reasons red voters give for voting for Trump. He just dismisses all of humanity as irrational, mad. He also never refers to the reality of racism in our society as part of that madness. Mental health experts consider being "out of touch" with reality to be an aspect of mental illness. So, perhaps Trump voters are mad in the sense that they will not acknowledge their actual motives for selecting Trump: sexism (dislike of women), misogyny (support for the patriarchy), racism, greed (belief that Trump will make them rich), lack of empathy for others. Somerby will not admit that these things motivate red voters (and himself). Instead, he says blue voters are irrational, mad, without supporting that statement with any evidence. His main argument is that blue voters "look that way (mad, irrational) to others" and thus must be the reason why Harris lost, whereas Trump voters have good reasons for voting for a crazy candidate.
Somerby stopped making sense a long time ago. Today, he argues that racism is not why red voters love Trump. That's idiotic and easily refuted given the campaign run by Trump and Vance (Haitians are eating the pets!).
Somerby admits that he thinks people are idiots (paraphrase of we humans don't think well). Today he proves it by advancing arguments that no one but an idiot would buy. But if you are voting against Harris due to sexism and racism, your proferred reasons don't have to make sense, and red voters know that about each other. So does Somerby.
Agree.
Delete"he argues that racism is not why red voters love Trump. That's idiotic and easily refuted given the campaign run by Trump and Vance"
Delete43% of Latinos and 16% of Blacks voted for Trump. Either his racism eluded all those people, or you're missing something.
So, 57% of Latinos and 84% of blacks voted for Harris. It's no wonder the Republican party is so into voter suppression.
DeleteSomerby’s racism denialism is sad.
ReplyDeleteHe may be just a shill, but one gets the sense that Somerby has also had to face feeling intimidated by women, people of color, and immigrants, and has not done well in coping with those feelings - they seem to have gotten the best of him.
This 'one' does not get that sense.
DeleteNot paying attention?
DeleteIn 2024 there were significant increases in Trump’s share of black votes, Asian votes, and Hispanic votes. Doesn’t that suggest that Trump voters became less racist?
ReplyDeleteThe number of black voters who chose Trump has no bearing on the motivations of white voters who chose Trump.
DeleteSurely, this “David” is mocking the real “David”, by posing such a braindead proposition.
DeleteIf not, then the question is a non sequitur, as Quaker indicates, based on a false premise, therefore the notion expressed is both invalid and unsound.
"If not, then the question is a non sequitur, as Quaker indicates, based on a false premise, therefore the notion expressed is both invalid and unsound."
DeleteThat pretty much describes DavidinCal except leaving out his always commenting in bad faith..
The only significant increase was with the portion of Hispanic male voters, and as Somerby points out, this is all based on shaky exit polling.
DeleteOverall, turnout was low, so an increase in share does not indicate an increase in support. Furthermore, Trump apparently did achieve a gain in low propensity voters, such as a modest increase with certain male people of color voters, whereas Harris lost because a startling number of people, seemingly, did not vote at all.
Racism, in fact, has its roots in 15th century Spain, and then spread through Spanish (and others’) colonialism, so there’s no paradox with Hispanics engaging in racism/White Supremacy since they originated it.
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/how-racism-was-first-officially-codified-in-15thcentury-spain
Going by societal data/metrics, things like racism, sexism, and xenophobia have not decreased significantly in recent years, they are still going strong, which the Trump election merely reinforces.
Let us not give too much credit to Hispanic male racism without considering the role of their misogyny.
DeleteDIC: when shit attracts more flies, it is still shit.
DeleteGaetz is done.
ReplyDeleteYes, the child trafficker is done.
DeleteNext up will it be the white supremacist Sec of Defense nominee who raped a woman after slipping her a mickey?
How about the Sec of Ed who was sued for enabling sexual abuse of children?
The Republican Party used to be the party of racists and sexists, but they’ve been expanding their tent to now include rapists and sexual assault perpetrators.
DeleteWell, really, they’ve always been that way, but on the DL, now it’s front center, they’ve come out of the rest stop bathrooms, they no longer have to make sheepish claims about “wide stances”.
Folks like Musk can get his tax cuts, his investigations dropped, and his knob polished all at the one stop shop GOP - Grand Old Pedos.
Trump even openly demonstrated how he blows his puppetmasters at a recent rally. Weird guy, weird supporters.
https://youtube.com/shorts/d9mWoTPhOIE?si=cjZ5w8V_d7zj9AC3
You're doing a heck of a job, Susie.
DeleteIt is reassuring to know that Republicans draw the line at sex trafficking pedophiles.
DeleteBut not at pedophile enabling wrestling coaches. They get to chair committees.
DeleteQiB, that’s not a bad thing.
DeleteAnonymices, you’ve have Bill Clinton, John Edwards, Eric Swalwell, Gavin Newsom, Anthony Weiner and more. How quickly you forget.
DeleteAnd Andrew Cuomo who might be president right now had he behaved himself. At least Cuomo would have stayed put for photo ops.
DeleteAre you right wingers now sliming people simply because they are opponents? There are no sex scandals involving Gavin Newsom or Eric Swalwell, to my knowledge. Putting them on a list of guys with mistresses or minor sexting problems to tar them by association is an ugly propaganda move. And Edwards' problem was that he used campaign funds inappropriately, not that he had sex with a woman. Republican sexual misbehavior is arguably much worse.
DeleteIt’s not the misbehavior, it’s the acceptance of it. Last time I checked, Weiner wasn’t in congress. Al Franken was gone because of a few pranks. Shame on the dems for that. Meanwhile the Republicans try to hide their investigation of the sex trafficker and have a pedophile enabler with his phoney rolled up shirtsleeves running committees. Not even moral enough to challenge that. No comparison to be made here with an administration soon to be run by a self described pussy grabber successfully prosecuted for rape.
DeleteHere are a few reasons.
ReplyDeleteAbuse of power in Trump prosecutions and investigations
Lying to the American people about "Russia" and Hunter's laptop and the like
Willful accommodation of unchecked illegal immigration. Laken Riley is dead because of Democrats.
Sick no-limits abortion and calling it "health care"
Destruction of education especially post-secondary which is now effective only in making graduates brainwashed and dumber
Weird-ass gender bullshit including victimizing children
Racist and sexist hatred. Democrats hate white males.
Hatred of Christianity
Men in dresses stealing suitcases
Weak, globalist foreign policy
Uglification of culture
Endless preaching in spite of all of these attempts to destroy people and America
Laken Riley is not dead because of Democrats. The man who killed her was in the US legally under a program that Trump created during his term. Dems do not approve of murder and do nothing to enable or encourage men murdering young women.
DeleteListing a bunch of propaganda slogans
DeleteHere is AOC showing common sense about trans people:
ReplyDelete“what Nancy Mace and what Speaker Johnson are doing are endangering all women and girls — because if you ask them ‘what is your plan on how to enforce this?’ they won’t come up with an answer. what it inevitably results in are women and girls who are primed for assault, because people are going to want to check their private parts, and suspecting who is trans, and who is cis, and who’s doing what. and so the idea that Nancy Mace wants little girls and women to drop trou in front of who? an investigator? who will that be? … it’s disgusting. it is disgusting.”
One solution would be to stop humoring kids who claim to be the opposite sex. Then they wouldn't have to ever drop trou.
DeleteOr you could stop panty sniffing and let others live their lives however they want. They aren’t hurting anyone, but you are.
DeleteAnonymouse 7:25pm, how often are trans people challenged to prove their gender in restroom? I’m sure it’s happened before, but it’s as rare as hens teeth. You know why? Because it was a given that people used the restroom that was reserved for their bio gender.
DeleteYou change that societal custom and THEN you have an issue with people reacting in that manner.
Congress critters have a private bathroom in their office suites.
And here is Jeff Tiedrich on the subject:
ReplyDelete"hey, here’s a fun quote. see if you can guess who said it.
“I strongly support LGBTQ rights and equality. No one should be discriminated against.”
“It isn’t a black-and-white issue. I do believe that religious liberty, the First Amendment, gay rights, and transgender equality can all coexist. I’m also a constitutionalist, and we have to ensure anti-discrimination laws don’t violate First Amendment rights or religious freedom.”
“I have friends and family that identify as LGBTQ. Understanding how they feel and how they’ve been treated is important. Having been around gay, lesbian, and transgender people has informed my opinion over my lifetime.”
that was Nancy Mace, back in 2021 — before Republicans decided that endless culture wars were the shining path forward.
and it’s all shameless hypocrisy — I guarantee that if it were Republican Caitlin Jenner who had been elected to Congress, you wouldn’t hear one peep out of any of these fuckers about which bathroom she uses."
Anonymouse 7:27pm, your speculation that a bunch of women would willingly undress in front of Caitlin Jenner because he is a Republican is about as self-serving argument as can be. It’s the same sort of crap people bring up as to transmen undressing in men’s locker rooms. How often do they qualify for a men’s team? Almost never. How much of a predatory threat would they be to the bio male athletes? None. Who among them could ever possibly be in danger of sexual or physical assault via the other athletes? The transman.
DeleteThe great people of this country feel that Republicans are bigoted shit-heads. Should the feelings of great Americans be ignored?
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ReplyDelete