WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 24, 2024
What kind of nation are we? Monday evening, in New Hampshire, the intensely disordered Donald J. Trump made a statement which struck us as uncomfortably accurate.
Leaving aside a few points of complication, this is what he said:
We have become a nation which is incapable of solving even the smallest problem. The simplest of problems we can no longer solve. We can't do anything.
As a nation, have we reached the point where we can't solve even the simplest problems? In our view, it's stunning to see the way blue tribe commenters to Kevin Drum's subsequent post seem to think that this is the most ridiculous thought in the world.
Within the liberal / progressive world, it's standard thinking that we may be on the verge of losing our democracy by the end of this year. In our view, that qualifies as a dramatic example of possibly being unable to solve even the most basic and fundamental problems.
So it would seem to us. But the troops seemed to think we were out of our mind when we said that Trump's statement, shorn of the usual phantasmagoric add-ons, was basically accurate and would seem to be basically accurate to tens of millions of voters, blue as well as red.
If someone other than Trump had said it, it might have seemed to make more sense with the liberal / progressive / Democratic Party world. We thought immediately of the years and years, leading up tyo the present day, in which we as a nation have been unable to solve the problems associated with migration and the southern border.
On a smaller scale, we thought of the way we haven't been able to build a second train tunnel from New Jersey into New York City, even though everyone on the east coast knows what a transportation jam point that is.
(If memory serves, Governor Christie somehow took the federal money for the project and used it to cover the cost of his revenue-draining tax cuts. The transportation problem remains unsolved.)
Is our nation, which is about to lose its democracy, able to solve the most basic problems? Was it able to do so in 1860, before the start of the civil war? We would have thought that everyone agrees that we've reached a point of national divisions creating a potential national crisis.
Kevin Drum, whose work we very much admire, seems to see things differently, as is fully appropriate. The headline on his rebuttal post reads like this:
The United States is one of the world’s great problem solvers
In his post, Kevin lists a lot of problems we haven't yet solved. They're juxtaposed to a list of problems we have allegedly solved.
Our nation is rapidly splitting in two, with warnings that we'll have no future elections. But as we head off into that sunset, we can reassure ourselves that "we've passed tax cuts, bankruptcy reform, Obamacare, financial reform, and an infrastructure act."
In a famous story, we were offered a choice of a lady or a tiger. Today, you get this preliminary choice concerning the state of our nation:
We have become a nation which is incapable of solving even the smallest problem.
The United States is one of the world’s great problem solvers.
As major tribunes within the progressive world warn us that our democracy itself is about to pass out of existence which description makes more sense? (There is no simple answer.)
We're big admirers of Kevin's work here. We hope to encourage a wider discussion of this elementary conundrum.
Concerning his commenters, reading their comments convinces us that there is no cure for the human race or for our human devotion to the sacred truths of the tribe. There's one point on which all human tribes agree:
The other tribe is all wrong. Our tribe is right all the way down. Please don't suggest that we could improve. In our greatness, we've never been wrong.
Concerning Kevin, we offer no snark. Concerning the commenters? More and more, it seems to us that there is no cure for human.
The American aristocracy cuts deals with middle class every four years for votes.
ReplyDeleteThe rest of us are told quite directly to go fuck ourselves for criticizing this "democracy."
If you find the American political system unsatisfactory, I can think of at least three reasonable courses of action for you: 1) Participate in it while trying to change it, 2) Actively work to replace it, or 3) Leave and move to a place more to your liking.
DeleteHowever, yelling that everyone who disagrees with you is bought off or stupid will most likely result in more invitations to autocopulation.
A complete waste of time for you to vote. I hope you’re not considering it; it will accomplish nothing.
DeleteIt accomplished 4 years of Biden instead of Trump, with all the positive achievements that has entailed. I am very pleased about that.
DeleteQuaker cant even deny he's being read like a book
DeleteWell Said Quaker. Should also be noted that to Bob, if you have a blog with some following you are OK, if you say the same thing and don’t, well, you are basic a human problem. Vermin perhaps? Bob is an elitist.
DeleteBut we do understand Bob a little more from this. The core of Trump’s message, that all is lost in this slime pit that is the U.S. ( without him) is something Bob is bitterly receptive to.
@8:05, you seem to be talking about Somerby's reaction to Drum's flattery. Drum name-drops Somerby every once in a while, so Somerby calls him his favorite blogger even when they disagree with each other. It doesn't take much for Somerby to give someone a bye and you are right that he may be motivated by his rejection by left-wing media or local activists to say harsh things about liberals these days. If they don't love him, he will not love them back. But if you have no beliefs anchored in values of evidence, you can use flattery as your weathervane, much as Trump does.
DeleteOriginal poster here.
DeleteI don't think the solution is to not vote, that was not my comment. I think voting should be 1/5th of the whole action you take to make change like Quaker said.
But both parties need to take out some trash. Trump is worse trash than Biden, but they're both trash and need to go.
I'm a fan of the Biden administration approving the rate of unionization but that's really the Democratic party being pulled to the center left through a comprise with the new momentum of Bernieism. Those staff came from the party not just Biden's cult of genius.
DeleteI would like to see campaign finance reform changed so we don't have to kiss ass of political celebrities to have politics function at all.
" Leave and move to a place more to your liking."
Delete"Get away from my white people freedom"
ReplyDelete"The United States is one of the world’s great problem solvers"
If you ask the world, Kevin, I bet they'll tell you that the United States is the greatest problem creator.
It really does seem that half the US can solve problems, and the other half creates them. Huh!
DeleteCovid was a big problem and we solved that (together with the rest of the world). Why do we not get credit for that?
DeleteYes, the right wing obstructed progress on that one all the way to today. I hope Trump doesn't catch the newest version of covid from Alina Habba, especially if he hasn't been vaccinated. But if he does, that will be his problem, not ours.
I was a U.S. Army chaplain in the Civil War. I was the president of the University of Notre Dame. I am William Corby.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteI still think that having the world's most genius abstract painter in The Family is a UGE advantage.
But why not donate the genius paintings to the Louvre? Why not? Why?
This is unconscionable.
Hunter Biden is cognitive. Jared Kushner is ignitive.
DeleteWhen your only political observation is to whine that Hunter Biden has a better life than you, it’s time to sit this one out and spend time introspecting on why you are such a sad loser.
DeleteThis is why we can't have nice things at this blog. Somerby will not solve the problem of annoying trolls, even though he has the tools to moderate his blog. But since Somerby is conservative, he cannot blame that on liberals being unable to solve the smallest problem, as Trump accused.
DeleteYes, the troll problem has surpassed all bounds. I am Corby.
DeleteMeanwhile, Greg Abbott is determined to ignite another civil war.
ReplyDeleteGreg Abbott is a fellow-citizen with whom we disagree, a good decent person, but just a little bit ignitive.
DeleteHe has the souls of a dead mother and her two dead daughters on his conscience. That would be a problem for him except he seems to not care.
DeleteSomerby trots out his dumb trick pony of falsely claiming that the blue tribe has an inerrancy issue.
ReplyDeleteThis is blatantly false to even the most casual observer.
What Somerby is really whining about is why the blue tribe does not kowtow to the lunacy of the red tribe.
Earth to Somerby, the problems we have not solved is primarily due to roadblocks from the red tribe.
I am the most casual observer, and it's not blatantly false to me.
DeleteAnd what's "inerrancy issue"?
It’s not false to you, but you don’t know what it is.
DeleteGawd you are cute!
Yes. Whatever it is, it's not blatantly false to me. Capiche?
DeleteHow can you decide whether the left has an inerrancy issues (saying "it's not blatantly false to me") without knowing what inerrancy means?
DeleteSomerby is just saying that the left thinks it is right about everything. I know that I feel like I am more right than Republicans about most things. But I don't see that as a problem, if I am actually right. So I look for evidence to support my views. I don't think Republicans do that much (or what they accept as evidence is not actually true). I think Somerby is way too condemning of liberals over things that we are provably right about. We have studies on our side. Somerby refuses to accept studies as evidence, along with dismissing expertise, knowledge, facts, history, and so on. If you have no way of deciding what is true or not, then anything goes and there is no way of resolving disputes with Republicans. That is where Somerby's thinking leaves us. I will not exchange my belief in evidence for Somerby's "anything is possible" beliefs, and yes, I do believe my way of testing ideas is better than his. But I don't think that is any kind of inerrancy.
Sure, sure.
DeleteEnjoy the ward, we will visit when we can.
Please stop using the word capiche. It hurts my ears when you say it.
DeleteC'est dommage.
DeleteIf this troll were the least bit bilingual, he would write and say it the Italian way.
DeleteNon capisco.
DeleteSono Corby.
DeleteAfter giving no facts you claim to have facts on your side
DeleteThey’re on my side. I don’t give them. Kapisch?
Delete"Within the liberal / progressive world, it's standard thinking that we may be on the verge of losing our democracy by the end of this year. In our view, that qualifies as a dramatic example of possibly being unable to solve even the most basic and fundamental problems. "
ReplyDeleteThe existence of a problem is not evidence of the inability to solve that problem. We have a voting system that will resolve who will run our country for the next four years (after Biden's term ends). It works fine. I personally don't see Trump's candidacy as much of a problem because he is on his way to losing. IF he were elected again, it would be problematic for democracy but we have systems to keep Trump from becoming a dictator, if elected, too. They worked on 1/6 and will be partially the reason why Trump will not win again. They include the impeachment hearings and the 1/6 Committee investigation, the prosecution of 1/6 insurrectionists, and the charges against Trump related to 1/6 (which have yet to be tried). All of that is a solution to the problem of Trump's desire to become a fascist dictator. That problem is in the process of being solved.
I am concerned that Somerby does not recognize this.
It doesn't seem right to blame liberals and progressives for the idea that we cannot solve even small problems. I don't see liberals going around saying that stuff. I DO hear Somerby saying it, but now he seems to be trying to shift the blame back to us.
DeleteBlaming the victim is a common tactic among right wingers.
Delete"But the troops seemed to think we were out of our mind when we said that Trump's statement, shorn of the usual phantasmagoric add-ons, was basically accurate and would seem to be basically accurate to tens of millions of voters, blue as well as red."
DeleteTens of milions is Somerby new way of saying "a lot of people," akin to Carl Sagan's phrase "billions and billions". It is entirely inexact and Somerby has no idea how many people in either tribe thinks we are incapable of solving problems, just because Trump had a brain fart and said something ridiculous. And if red tribe members believe it because Trump said it, does that make it even the least bit true? Not given Trump's penchant for lying and for making equally vague statements that he pulls out of his ass.
Carl Sagan never said “billions and billions.” The comedian Steve Allen said it.
DeleteJohnny Carson joked and mimicked Sagan saying billions and billions. Of course Sagan said it.
DeleteSagan spoke of billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars. He never said “billions and billions.” Maybe Johnny said it, after Steve. Both were comedians.
DeleteBillions and Billions is the title of a book written by Sagan. Of course he said it.
DeleteRead the introduction to that book.
DeleteCan you quote the relevant part?
DeleteNo, I’m wrong. You’ve been right all along.
DeleteCarson often had Sagan on as a guest. I miss those days when "science" wasn't a dirty word to the right wing dittoheads. Nowadays we probably hear Ron DeSantimonious threaten to throw Sagan into the Hudson River for talking about the environment. Half this country has gone batshit crazy.
DeleteTrump has spent months falsely claiming auto workers are with him.
ReplyDeleteToday the United Auto Workers endorsed Biden.
Yay yay yay
DeleteSigns of intelligent life in the universe!
DeleteExcellent.
Delete"We thought immediately of the years and years, leading up tyo the present day, in which we as a nation have been unable to solve the problems associated with migration and the southern border. "
ReplyDeleteIf Somerby were also thinking of history, he would realize that the problem used to belong to Mexico because the border was not where it is now, but Texas was part of Mexico itself. For much of the next 50 years, there was no immigration problem because the US was trying to increase settlers and welcomed people to the territory, later a state (with German, English and Spanish as official languages). We had an open border that was crossed in both directions without problems (unless it was a US criminal fleeing south, or vice versa). With the increase in jobs in the US, people came across the border to work, mostly seasonally, returning to their homes in Mexico in the off season. That worked well for everyone.
Later the migrant worker (Bracero) program was institutionalized, as the US decided immigrants were bad, fought a border war in the 1920s with Pancho Villa, and instituted immigration quotas in response to nativism on the right. After that, the right wing's attempts to control immigration made a lot of lives hell and did no good for our country.
Now, with the influx of people seeking asylum due to drug and gang, cartel and military juntas in Latin America, the flow of asylum seekers wax and wane, but this is not a problem for the US. It is a political football being used to polarize our parties by scapegoating poor and desperate people who cannot live in their own nations and want to start new lives in our country. This has always benefitted our economy, but the racist and nativist elements on the right have obstructed a reasonable solution to the problems of both the US and the immigrants themselves.
This is not one problem. It is an ongoing history of migration occurring worldwide and affecting many nations, not just our own. It is going to get worse unless we can effectively address the climate problem. The immediate problem for the US is to address the problem of Republicans obstructing change for political gain. That is going to change after the 2024 election because voters on the right are becoming intolerant of the lack of progress and they know who to blame (hint: it isn't the left).
Meanwhile, Somerby in his ignorance, thinks the problem is the left misunderstanding the concerns of border staters about brown-skinned, non-English speakers on the border, instead of realizing that Abbott is misusing his position to count coup with Democrats instead of dealing the needs of people in his state. The best evidence that Somerby is wrong comes from CA, which has its border problems under reasonable control because it is dealing with them, in comparison with Abbott who doesn't want to make the issue go away because he is making political hay over ruining people's lives.
If Somerby had an ounce of intelligence, he might deal with how these so-called problems are being defined, since you cannot solve a problem without analyzing it first.
Somerby never asks whether the definition of immigration as a problem of the US being flooded by brown-skinned people who will vote Democratic and replace white American workers, is actually what is happening at the border. Ths difference in definition is partly why we on the left do not see problems where Southern bigots do. And yes, I am sure we liberals are right on that one.
DeletePerhaps the immigration problem as presented by Bob is something simple as it had been presented by Trump, but even someone with a superficial grasp of it (me) knows this is absolute nonsense. We also know attempts to solve it or make it better have not been killed by the right not the left, even under Republican Presidents. This has something to do with bigotry thrown into the mix, sometimes subtly, now crudely by MAGA.
DeleteLos Angeles has terrible problems with transportation and overcrowding, this has something to do with the way the city was designed. Public transportation solutions will continue to be tricky even with unified public support.
So I understand Bob’s frustration with this. But like some strange overgrown toddler, he’s ready to flush the whole country down the drain because he sometimes gets stuck in traffic, take whatever toys he has and go home. Then he second the rantings of a deranged would be despot.
Bob does now make us understand the low character of his Trump voting friends and neighbors. The crybaby snobs who resent anyone who has read a book or two after graduating High School. Bob resents them too, and that is the guiding principle of his dishonesty.
Los Angeles has built outward instead of upward (as in NYC) because of the need to have shorter buildings in case of major earthquakes. That means that it is sprawling and difficult to serve geographically because of its large area using public transportation. With improvements in technology, it has become possible to build subterranean train lines that will withstand earthquake, but that is a relatively new development.
DeleteLos Angeles has been losing population, not gaining. The "overcrowding" occurs because low income people must crowd into a single dwelling because they cannot afford to live in single family homes or apartments without sharing rent. This is happening in Denver too, so it is not necessarily related to immigration but to the inability to build more densely in a limited area. People have dealt with these problems by moving to suburbs, so the Los Angeles area is full of separate cities expanding outwards from Downtown. People living in Los Angeles do not regard anything except the high costs as a "problem" but the right wing has been targeting blue cities and calling them cesspools, etc., without justification in many cases. Those who live in Los Angeles especially love its diversity, its cultural opportunities (especially as the center of film, music and other entertainment), famous writers, jazz musicians, artists. Science fiction writers like Robert A. Heinlein lived in LA. There was Shelley's Manhole and a plethora of recording studios (spawning rock bands, the Mothers of Invention, the Beach Boys). It was and is a great place to live.
Even back in the 1950s, before the emphasis on civil rights, Los Angeles was more integrated than other large cities in the US, had more favorable laws supporting social justice and thus had more biracial intermarriage, more awareness of minority issues (especially gay, Latino/Chicano, women's rights) than other places in the US. To a lesser extent than San Francisco, people moved to Los Angeles in order to be free of bigotry found elsewhere and to live their lives without restraint. We in Los Angeles are proud of that heritage too, although it is reviled by the right wing. Cities like LA made CA blue, not vice versa.
As I said elsewhere, Somerby is a nihilist. Values don't matter to him. This is why he can say:
ReplyDelete"There's one point on which all human tribes agree:
The other tribe is all wrong. "
Somerby does not consider any values to be right or wrong. They are all meaningless to him, so when he looks at disagreement based on values, he can consider each tribe equally right (or wrong). But is it true that values don't matter? Aside from philosophy, values define what makes some of us liberals while others are conservative. And if we divide into tribes along the lines of values, the consideration of those values is not only important to group definitions, but also to identity, morality, decision-making, our sense of what is important in life, our sense of making progress or living a good life, and so on.
That's why problem solving most office focuses on finding practical solutions at the detail level, that can best preserve the things that most important to both sides. Negotiations start with an exploration of the things held to be important by each side. Then problem solving looks for ways to achieve and satisfy the needs of both sides with minimal conflict or compromise. That is what diplomacy does and it works most of the time.
It cannot work is some lout like Somerby who does't care about values sits on the sidelines and chides one or the other side for being unwilling to let go of everything they care about most. Somerby chides the left because he identifies with the South and with conservative values, even while pretending to be unbiased or antagonistic to both sides. He clearly is not so. He isn't watching MSNBC 24/7 or defending racism and sexism (which themselves are based on values on each side).
Somerby seems to have given up coherent thinking in the past 10 years or he wouldn't be favorably quoting Trump to get liberals to agree with things he says. Today's essay is exhibit 1 in the trial of Somerby's sanity and it is all I need to know that Somerby is not worth taking seriously, no matter what he says. It was kind of Kevin Drum to humor him.
"Today's essay is exhibit 1 in the trial of Somerby's sanity and it is all I need to know that Somerby is not worth taking seriously"
DeleteSomerby so insane he is not worth reading, according to you. Yet you continue to read him. Hmmm.
Maybe he’s reading you? But I doubt it. I wouldn’t read you.
Delete"In our view, that qualifies as a dramatic example of possibly being unable to solve even the most basic and fundamental problems."
ReplyDeleteBasic and fundamental? OK. If you wish. But small? No. This is not a small problem at all. Our Host is playing three-card monte with us.
Also, the candidate doing the loudest yelling about this supposed problem is the one posing the greatest threat.
DeleteQ - Somerby switched from “small” to “basic/fundamental,” and that’s the monte? If so, calling it a monte seems way harsh to me. Nobody was misled, you know exactly what he’s saying.
DeleteIt’s like he’s playing three-card monte with the cards face up.
DeleteIt’s the full monte.
DeleteThe commenters on Drum likely overlap with those here. A gaggle of hysterical, uptight brown-nosers compulsively flabbergasted that anyone would express any thought contrary to current DNC talking points.
ReplyDeleteTypical right wing name calling. Zero content.
DeleteThe content is suggesting commenters here and on Drum's site are conformist pantywaists who are intolerant of any viewpoint differing from the DNC.
DeleteDon’t be silly.
Delete"The other tribe is all wrong. Our tribe is right all the way down." The commenters here never, ever deviate from DNC talking points. They seem to exist to promote DNC orthodoxy. If the DNC were to sponsor advocacy through online trolling, they would ask for precisely the kind of trolling these commenters engage in day in and day out.
DeleteThis is nonsense. The liberal commenters here express a variety of opinions and none of them are expressing any DNC "orthodoxy" because there is no such thing. The left has many factions who often disagree and none of it comes from the DNC until the party produces a platform at its nominating convention (every four years).
DeleteConservative trolls here rarely express opinions of any kind (except David in Cal) but mainly attack other commenters, especially liberal ones. They contribute nothing to any ongoing discussion except their peculiar kind of sniping.
When two tribes are expressing opposite or incompatible views, they cannot both be right. Somerby may be suggesting that each tribe THINKS the other is wrong, but both tribes cannot be right if they are not saying anything overlapping each other and reality. Somerby may be believe that a reality exists independent of people's beliefs, but that is his problem. Evidence based realists, AKA scientists, know that there is a knowable independent reality. And that means some beliefs are right and others are wrong and the arbiter is what can be demonstrated as evidence, not what people think.
Somerby, of course, is incapable of discussing this coherently. I don't know if he was ever capable of it, but he certainly isn't these days. So that leaves people trying to talk about issues and others sniping at them out of hostility and ignorance and surely the latter is wrong, regardless of whether the ideas of those trying to discuss reality are completely right or not. One side is trying and the other, the right wing, is not.
It is shameful that Somerby abets this instead of trying to help clarify disagreements, but that is the way it is.
typo correction: "Somerby may be believe..." should say "Somerby may NOT believe..."
DeleteThis blog has two token conservatives, myself a socialist, and the rest are hard center liberals falling over each other to call Bob a crypto Nazi or something
DeleteSomerby thinks he’s a socialist.
DeleteWhat is wrong with Trump’s skin?
ReplyDeleteIt’s orange.
DeleteSomerby offers us two conflicting statements about the US. They cannot both be true:
ReplyDelete"We have become a nation which is incapable of solving een the smallest problem.
The United States is one of the world’s great problem solvers."
He frames this in the context of a short story, The Lady or the Tiger, in which a young man who has flirted with the king's daughter must choose death or life, with the lady's help. The story does not tell us the result -- the reader must guess from the clues in the story, as the lady helps him choose.
In Somerby's formulation, we are not making any choice, but must decide which is true of our nation. Thus, the story has absolutely nothing to do with the truth or falsity of two statements about our problem solving ability.
Why does Somerby grab this story as a rhetorical device when it doesn't apply? Perhaps only because there are two choices and he wants to discuss two opposite statements. If he gave the story any thought at all, he might realize it doesn't fit. But Somerby doesn't engage in that kind of thought.
And that makes me think that Somerby has no greater ability to think about our country and its problems than Trump does. Both men are incoherent, both favor gloom and doom and dire warnings that come across as threats when Trump says them, because unlike Somerby, Trump has power to hurt others.
Needless to say, Drum has it right and Somerby is wrong. But Somerby can only deride Drum's commenters who point out Somerby's mistakes. And that makes Somerby the greater fool. I would have pity for Somerby except he is nearly as mean-spirited and bigoted as Trump. This empty attempt at poetic writing is pathetic, the more so to anyone who actually read the original story, which doesn't deserve to be used this way.
Notice that Somerby tells us that the story is famous, but he never mentions the author's name. It is Frank Stockton. I would only have taken a second to google it and give the author his due. But Somerby has no respect for other people's creative work. I suppose if you cannot be creative yourself, one solution is to steal from others.
This comment is one big pile of nothing.
DeleteSince the start of the Biden administration support for universal health care has gone up from 20% to 45% among Republicans.
ReplyDeletehttps://jabberwocking.com/even-republicans-arent-super-concerned-about-the-border/
All this Somerby-hate must be an undiagnosed pathology. Symptoms: compulsive reading of and bitching about a detested author.
ReplyDeleteAnd it seems to be contagious.
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ReplyDeleteFee fi fo fum. I smell the fart of an Englishman!
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteI am programmed to play bridge and to spam Somerby's blog.
I smell my fingers. I am nice.
Somerby is an ass.
I am Corby. Capiche?
When I drive my imaginary Tesla, I have an inerrancy issue. Capiche?
ReplyDeleteSomerby is an ass.
I am Corby.