BLUES: Its gender politics are gruesome throughout!

TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 2024

What about our own? Can we modern-day, tribal humans possibly learn to see ourselves more clearly? 

Can we learn to see ourselves more clearly through the auspices of the western world's earliest war poem? Can those of us in our own blue tribe take advantage of such opportunities?

If so, The Iliad beckons! It's the story of a ten-year siege—a seemingly endless siege of Troy conducted by a vast assembly of Achaean (Argive; Greek) armies. 

Judged by contemporary standards, the gender politics of the epic is awful.

But then too, just take a look at us! Before we consider our society's current political sieges, let's revisit that siege of Troy.

As we've already noted, the gender politics of The Iliad are horrible right from the jump:

Book One of the ancient war poem is called "The Rage of Achilles" in the Robert Fagles translation. That rage is brought on by a slight to Achilles' honor.

That slight is occasioned when Agamemnon, lord of men, is forced to return his sexual slave to her father, a priest to Apollo. He proceeds to seize Achilles' sexual slave to make up for his loss.

Thus insulted, Achilles repairs to his tents and refuses to fight. This creates the central problem of the ancient poem:

The Achaeans know they will never conquer the towering walls of Troy until Achilles, their greatest warrior, agrees to return to the fight.

Judged by contemporary norms—at least, judged by stated contemporary norms—the sexual politics here are awful. That said, it isn't until Book Three of the epic that we learn why this siege ever took place. 

Once again, the sexual politics are painful and gruesome, as judged by supposed modern standards.

Why have the Achaeans armies wasted nine of ten years of their lives fighting and dying on the plains before the walls of Troy? In Book Three, we're finally told! We'll let the leading authority on the war poem offer a brief synopsis:

Exposition (Books 1-4)

[...]

(3) The armies approach each other, but before they meet, Paris offers to end the war by fighting a duel with Menelaus, urged by Hector, his brother and hero of Troy. 

Here, the initial cause of the entire war is explained: Helen, wife of Menelaus, and the most beautiful woman in the world, is either through seduction or by force, taken by Paris from Menelaus' home in Sparta. 

Menelaus and Paris agree to duel. Helen will marry the victor.

All in all, that's about as old-world as it gets. 

For the record, Hector and Paris are the sons of Priam, the Trojan king. Menelaus is one of the sons of Agamemnon, lord of men and commander of the Argive forces.

At some point in the past, Paris has run off with Helen, the wife of Menelaus. Inevitably, Helen is understood to be "the most beautiful woman in the world."

The ten-year siege has been undertaken due to this insult to Achaean honor. As in the case of the sexual slaves in Book One, so too here: 

Helen is prized for her astonishing beauty. Such was the traditional framing of women's role in this ancient poem.

Book One turns on an offense to honor occasioned by the theft of a sexual slave. In Book Three, we learn that this ten-year siege has resulted from an offense to honor caused by the loss of the world's most beautiful woman.

This is old-world sexual politics in its most old world. That said, a more modern strain of humanity enters the poem in Book Three when we're taken inside the walls of Troy and we see the way Helen relates to her father-in-law, King Priam.

Was Helen stolen away by Paris, or was her flight consensual? Within the translation of Rober Fagles, we'll go with the latter construct.

As we enter the world of Book Three, Achaean and Trojan armies are about to wage their latest battle on the plains outside Troy. Helen is called to the walls of Troy by the intercession of a goddess. 

We begin to get a glimpse of who Helen actually is:

And now a messenger went to white-armed Helen too,
Iris, looking for all the world like Hector's sister

[...]

And Iris came on Helen in her rooms
weaving a growing web, a dark red folding robe,
working into the weft the endless bloody struggles
stallion-breaking Trojans and Argives armed in bronze
had suffered all for her at the god of battle's hands.

Helen is weaving a robe which records "the endless bloody struggles...suffered all for her." The goddess tells her to come to the walls of Troy, "so you can see what wondrous things they're doing," in effect on Helen's behalf.

Helen is more decent than that. At this point, the poem's first "live tears" take form:

And with those words
the goddess filled her heart with yearning warm and deep
for her husband long ago, her city and her parents.
Quickly cloaking herself in shimmering linen,
out of her rooms she rushed, live tears welling,
and not alone—two of her women followed close behind.
Aethra, Pittheus' daughter, and Clymene, eyes wide,
and they soon reached the looming Scaean Gates.

When Helen reaches the walls of Troy, she joins her father-in-law. The old men of the realm are gathered around their king:

And there they were, gathered around Priam.

[...]

The old men of the realm held seats above the gates.
Long years had brought their fighting days to a halt
but they were eloquent speakers still, clear as cicadas
settled on treetops, lifting their voices through the forest,
rising softly. falling, dying away.

Chirping like cicadas, the old men marvel at Helen's "terrible beauty." As they do, they inevitably extend a clear hint of blame.

That said, Priam is deeply humane, in the ancient and the modern fashion—and Helen, a "dear child" to her (second) father-in-law, is soon shedding hot tears:

They murmured low
but Priam, raising his voice, called across to Helen,
"Come over here, dear child. Sit in front of me.
so you can see your husband of long ago,
your kinsmen and your people.
I don't blame you. I hold the gods to blame.
They are the ones who brought this war upon me,
devastating war against the Achaeans."

And Helen the radiance of women answered Priam.
"I revere you so, dear father, dread you too—
if only death had pleased me then, grim death,
that day I followed your son to Troy, forsaking
my marriage bed, my kinsmen and my child,
my favorite, now full-grown,
and the lovely comradeship of women my own age.
Death never came, so now I can only waste away in tears.

If only death had taken her then, this many subsequent deaths in battle would never have come! So speaks the radiance of women, whose role in this ancient drama is tied to her impossible beauty in a way unlikely ever to be undone. 

Among the Achaean troops, the insult to honor has occasioned ten years of tribal rage. Inside the walls of Troy, Priam speaks kindly to his "dear daughter," but she can't escape the framing placed upon her by the gender politics of this time.

Everyone knows whose side he's on in this ancient poem. The honor of the Achaeans has been offended against. Those inside the walls of Troy are fighting for their survival.

Here today, within our modern sieges, red tribe armies are conducting a siege of the Biden White House. Our own blue armies have been conducting a lengthy siege against former president Trump:

Starting on March 25, we blues will hurl ourselves against the fact that the aforementioned Trump allegedly had consensual sexual relations, on one occasion years ago, with an amazing "porn star"—with a consenting adult woman who wasn't his actual wife.

Starting on March 25, the candidate will be prosecuted, perhaps in somewhat unusual ways, for related behaviors. As we hurl ourselves into this complaint, to what extent have human conduct and human impulse actually changed?

The siege of Troy was a war of the Late Bronze Age. Our current armies are conducting their dueling sieges in our own Information Age.

As we've noted in recent weeks, red tribe armies engage in all manner of dissembling and disinformation when they conduct their assaults on the Biden White House. Unfortunately, that doesn't necessarily mean that their basic complaints lack merit.

Tomorrow, we'll start to look at the ways of our blue tribe's armies. We'll even start to ask you to take the Modern Tribal Challenge:

Can you conceive of the possibility that the tribunes who vote the way we blue denizens vote may at times be less than fully insightful, possibly even less than fully honest?

Can you imagine taking that challenge? Also, can we possibly see ourselves a bit more clearly as we thumb the pages of antique works of fiction?

Is there any chance of doing that? We think our own blue tribe is flawed, perhaps in dangerous ways.

Inevitably, you will decide. 

Tomorrow: Her "beloved colleagues and viewers"


177 comments:

  1. "Can we learn to see ourselves more clearly through the auspices of the western world's earliest war poem?"

    No, we can't see anything clearly when Somerby obscures his points with these references to Homer's glorification of war.

    Somerby gets across that he thinks there is something wrong with the blue tribe. He does a terrible job telling anyone WHAT he thinks is wrong. I believe this is by design, because how could someone who has been writing about this for 10 years or more still be failing to get across a message that cannot be that complicated?

    This is why I believe Somerby's only point is to knock the left, to drive away support for liberal candidates and programs, not to change anything about how we liberals campaign or express our views, or whatever the hell Somerby is concerned about.

    Direct communication would be better. Is Somerby incapable of being direct or is he really not that interested in changing the left, only in undermining the election of Biden in favor of support for the right wing?

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  2. "Judged by contemporary standards, the gender politics of the epic is awful."

    Stealing and bartering women, forcing them to do things against their will, is NOT "gender poliics." It is criminal behavior.

    This is another reason why we cannot learn anything from ancient Troy. Their standards for most behavior are not ours. Any wisdom Somerby might find in Homer's words is tainted by this mistreatment of female human beings.

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  3. Stormy Daniels has always stated the encounter with Trump was consensual. The story of Helen of Troy has zero relevance.

    “Starting on March 25, the candidate will be prosecuted, perhaps in somewhat unusual ways, for related behaviors. “

    He is not being prosecuted for “related behaviors.” He is being prosecuted for falsifying business records and for campaign finance violations. He would be similarly charged if he had used funds to hush up a disgruntled former contractor. He is not on trial for having consensual sex.

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    1. Think about Roy Moore's lust for teenagers.

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    2. Roy Moore is irrelevant to the March 25 trial where Trump tried to hush up the women he was misbehaving with. That trial is about the money, not the sex.

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    3. Yes, Moore is irrelevant. But you can go ahead and think about his lust for teenagers. You know you want to.

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    4. Men might get off on that suggestion but women don't.

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    5. That stuff fascinates women. They love to hear about bad men who defile women. There are cable channels dedicated to it.

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    6. People don't like living in bubbles. They want to hear from people who disagree with them. There's a whole internet site called Facebook with an algorithm dedicated to it.

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    7. There is a formula to every horror film and most thrillers. A defenseless woman is being terrorized, beaten, abused or tortured, killed by either a bad man, a monster, an alien, a wild animal, or some supernatural creature. Tippi Hedrun was chased by birds. Think of Sigourney Weaver in the Alien films, and again in Ghostbusters. Men do seem to get off on women being threatened and harmed. Men are victims far less often in films.

      Men like to fantasize that they are the rescuers in such films. They identify with the cop or superhero or detective, not the victim, and making the victim a woman heightens the audience's sense of manliness. Even rom-coms these days are written with the male audience in mind, not female viewers. They have gotten raunchier, less romantic, more sexual because guys think that women watching such films on a date night will lead to sex, but actually the slapstick at women's expense and the sexually explicit scenes are entertaining to men and do little for women, who prefer drama and romance and relationship in films.

      I assume @1:38 is referring to the Hallmark Channel but I think he misunderstands what those movies are about. The true meaning of Christmas.

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    8. There are channels dedicated to Christianity, too.

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  4. "as judged by supposed modern standards."

    Somerby has said previously that he doesn't think modern standards for sexual behavior are that much different from what he calls "gruesome" sexual politics. Today he repeats that belief by including the word "supposed" in his reference to modern standards. Why does he do this? His explanation is that "MeToo" has faded and no one cares about how women are treated these days.

    That casual dismissal of laws and prosecutions against men who mistreat women is outrageous on Somerby's part. There are men who get away with crimes against women, but not because WOMEN don't care and not because there are no prosecutions and laws and jail sentences for those who are caught. The main difference between our times and ancient Troy is that there were no such laws in those days. Women had NO rights unless they were protected by men, who considered them property.

    That Somerby sees this as similar to today's situation tells us that Somerby is a major sexist and misogynist, not someone who cares about women's rights or treatment of girls in our society. Does he perhaps reread Homer in order to find justification for his views? There are men finding justification for white supremacy in medievalism, so why not?

    Notice that the insult is to male honor, not to Helen herself, who wishes she had died rather than be taken to Troy. Modern standards consider what women want, think and feel, not solely what men want. And modern standards do not allow women to be treated like things with no human agency. Imperfect justice does not change that fact.

    What liberal today yearns for the good old days when women could be stolen and were sex slaves? None that I know would say so out loud, if he were that disturbed. How then can Somerby claim to be liberal while blatantly spitting in the face of modern women who insist that they too must be treated like people?

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  5. Somerby is totally wrong about the Iliad. I know nothing about the Iliad and aren't interested in it. Stultus sum.

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    1. Also, the Iliad has zero relevance. But if it did, Somerby gets it wrong. Non faciunt sensum.

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    2. Menalaus est frater Agamemnonis. Filius non est.

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    3. How do you say Whoooosh in Latin?

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  6. "Here today, within our modern sieges, red tribe armies are conducting a siege of the Biden White House. Our own blue armies have been conducting a lengthy siege against former president Trump:"

    What is a siege. It is when opposing armies encircle a town and prevent anyone from going in or out until the townspeople run out of water or food and open the gates to the enemy in order to stay alive. It affects everyone inside the town gates, including women and children, not just men designated as soldiers.

    Is that what the blue tribe is doing to Trump? No one is blocking Trump's access to anything, not his rallies and podium, his ability to solicit money from supporters, his right to choose lawyers to defend himself. He is not walled up in Mar a Lago, but freely roamning the country and attending events. He is even controlling legislators in the House to do his political will. Where is there any siege?

    The left IS attacking Trump directly, using traditional political tactics to campaign against him. The left IS NOT controlling the justice system to prosecute Trump for his past crimes. That is independent from the President and his party and there is no control of courts by blue politicians. The most political court is the Supreme Court (due to presidential appointments) and that has been stacked by Trump himself, not by Democrats. But the judgments already handed down against Trump have come from a mix of judges, some appointed by Democrats and some by Republicans, and from juries containing both pro and anti Trump voters.

    When Somerby refers to court prosecutions as part of the blue tribes war on Trump, it is Somerby who is politicizing our justice system. Liberals do not do that. Further, when Somerby says that the attacks on Biden do not lack merit, he is siding with the red tribe, not behaving like any liberal would. We liberals do not need Somerby to explain the merits of Republican arguments to us. That is not how election campaigns work.

    Is Somerby leaning over backwards to be fair or unbiased or objective? Not in the least. He has promoted red tribe views here that are entirely lacking in merit and he has refused to support blue tribe candidates (such as Biden, Clinton, Harris) while joining the red tribe in its attacks. And he has gratuitously defended red tribe candidates who do not deserve his support, including Roy Moore, who is about as egregiously awful a candidate as any from the right. Not to mention Somerby's arguments in support of Trump -- and no, it doesn't matter that he calls Trump crazy if he also promotes his reelection.

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    1. Right - I mentioned Roy Moore above too. He defended Moore and the fierce fire in his loins for teenage girls.

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    2. Moore's behavior was a scandal BECAUSE our so-called sexual politics are different today. We define a girl under 18 as incapable of giving consent to sex, unlike the Greeks and Trojans, who considered younger girls fair game. We do this because earlier sex is harmful to those girls, especially if they become pregnant and leave school, but also because it is bad for their social and emotional development. We know this from statistics about outcomes for the girls. Because of the power differential between adult men and teen girls (or younger children), the damage is to the girls not the men.

      Men who do not understand why these laws exist and thinking mostly of their own gratification, not the girl's needs. That is a poor basis for a relationship beyond the sexual attraction the men feel. But this is why Trump engages in inappropriate sexual behavior. He only cares about his own needs, not those of anyone else. Notice that just as he stiffs his contractors on construction jobs, he stiffed Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal (who believed Trump was in love with her), even in a transactional relationship (one with quid pro quo), simply because he had the power to do so with impunity.

      In these court cases, the greater power resides with the state. Trump is not used to being in the weaker position and hasn't grasped that he can be arrested and put in jail if he persists in ignoring the limits that bind the rest of us in a rule-governed society.

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    3. And then Gaetz. He defended Gaetz. Don't forget Gaetz. It was Moore, Gaetz Newt Gingrich and Bill Clinton.

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    4. "[Somerby] has gratuitously defended red tribe candidates who do not deserve his support, including Roy Moore"

      Here's how Somerby defended Moore:

      "Back in 1979, Moore molested her, [Leigh] Corfman said, when she was 14 years old. . . . We know of no reason to doubt Corfman's accusation." 11/30/17.

      If this is how Somerby defends people, I hope he never defends me.

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    5. "If this is how Somerby defends people, I hope he never defends me."

      Nicely phrased, Dogface.

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    6. Dogface, you cannot pluck a single sentence out of the context of Somerby's larger series of essays and claim that because he "has no reason to doubt Corfman" that means the rest of what he wrote doesn't defend Moore. Somerby said a lot of bad stuff back then.

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    7. 12:50. What Somerby said was that Moore was accused of assaulting two teenagers and of dating others. Some defense!

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    8. Gratuitous defense, Dogface, gratuitous.

      And also "He defended Moore and the fierce fire in his loins for teenage girls."

      Let's see where this goes next...

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    9. Somerby said a lot more than that. He said that "dating" underage girls was OK if the mama approved. He left out the part where Moore was accused of stalking young teens at the mall (they asked security to stop him from following them around). He left out the part where he went to the local high school and asked the administrators to call a young teen out of class so he could ask her out. He left out the concerns of Moore's co-workers at the DA's office, who thought it was creepy that he was fixated on young teens like that. And the part where he lied about signing the yearbook of a 14 year old, who then produced the proof. DAs/judges are not supposed to lie like that.

      Somerby argued that because Bogie and Bacall were a romantic couple while she was 17, that the movies condoned such relationships. He argued that Moore was "a catch" because of his job. He argued that 32 year old men who chase children shouldn't be called pedophiles because 14 year olds are older than very young children. He stopped short of arguing that the very young girls are in their prime, unsoiled and unspoiled, as the incels do.

      Psychologists say that older men who chase underage girls are sexually inadequate. They do not want to be compared to rivals who they fear are more sexually competent. They use their power (and Moore's social status as a DA) to awe and overwhelm young girls, fearing they could not compete for older and wiser women closer to their own age. Normal men despise men who prey on young girls. Somerby defends them.

      And Dogface defends Somerby. What does that make Dogface?

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    10. Let's get a quote of Somerby saying that "dating" (quotes, so having sex?) underage girls was OK if mama approved, then we can tackle the question about Dogface.

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    11. Moore loves young women.

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    12. @2:08 You can use the Search feature on Somerby's blog as well as I can. He discussed Roy Moore over a period of weeks, so keep looking. I believe he said that Roy Moore was considered by the mamas as "a catch" in that same essay, if that helps you look. It may or may not have been the same essay when he was discussing the different standards in the South and that marriage very young was common because traditions were different there, implying that age of consent laws were imposing Northern standards on the grand ole South.

      On one of the dates Roy Moore was described as having with a 14 year old, they were on a picnic and wound up rolling around on a blanket in their underwear. I don't consider that sex but it is majorly inappropriate. That's why I used quote marks. It isn't like he took her for an ice cream sundae and to the movies. That would be a typical date for a 14 year old.

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    13. Oh sure I'll go search for a quote that probably doesn't exist based on you making an unlikely claim. Very logical.... no.

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    14. I've posted quotes before and Dogface never accepts them and doesn't change his position. I'm done wasting time that way.

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    15. Yes that's the backup answer, I've seen this dance before. Can't produce quote. They wouldn't accept them anyway. No more producing quotes. Convenient.

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    16. "I've posted quotes before and Dogface never accepts them"

      That's because they never say what you say they say. But, frankly, I'm done with you. Go ahead, slander Somerby to your heart's content.

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    17. I disagree about what the quotes say. So do others here. You make no contribution here aside from trolling those critical of Somerby. Stay done.

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    18. It’s weird how Somerby-haters can say all sorts of horrible things about Somerby - like he defends child molesters - but then cry and suck their thunbs when challenged to support their defamations.

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    19. I did support them. With quotes as requested.

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  7. "Starting on March 25, the candidate will be prosecuted, perhaps in somewhat unusual ways, for related behaviors. As we hurl ourselves into this complaint, to what extent have human conduct and human impulse actually changed?"

    We have rules about how campaigns must be conducted, to ensure fairness in our electoral process. Trump broke those rules when he used campaign funds as hush money to silence multiple women he had affairs with, then falsified records to conceal the transactions.

    Many of Trump's difficulties in life arise because he will not follow the same rules as govern others. He breaks laws, refuses to pay legitimate debts, breaks promises, lies, and does whatever he pleases. It is the heart of his classified documents case, his impeachments, his refusal to concede an election he lost, and it is the heart of the Stormy Daniels case to be tried on March 25. Sex has nothing to do with it -- it is about breaking campaign laws and financial business laws (that exist to protect the public from fraud).

    Somerby perhaps intends to tell us that because modern times are not that different from the past, Trump's sexual dalliances are no big deal. Men will be men, he may tell us. But that isn't the point. First, humans are not animals because we have the ability to regulate and control our instincts and impulses. Second, a presidential candidate, of all people, must adhere to civilized behavior. We elect a president who governs in trust for the people, not a king who governs by his own fiat and to serve his own interests. But this trial is not about "sexual politics." It is about lying in business records and misuse of funds in his campaign.

    That may be too complicated for Somerby to grasp, but I hope his readers will be able to work their way through the confusion he is already spreading about that trial.

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  8. The honesty or dishonesty of Trump vs Biden is moot because Trump has mid-stage dementia whereas Biden has normal cognitive ability despite his age. I will vote for a sane president over a demened one every day of the week. The election campaign is over -- there is just the voting to be done.

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    1. demened = demented

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    2. So your comment implies you would vote for Trump if the situation was reversed. Correct?

      If so, fascinating. So the possibility of dementia is your main criteria for voting?

      If not, then explain the relevance of your comment.

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    3. If the situation were reversed, I would be hoping for a better candidate, but I would not vote, stay home, before I would ever vote for Trump. He is entirely unacceptable for so many reasons besides his dementia (which is now obvious to all).

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    4. So the dementia isn't the deciding factor after all, got it. Why misrepresent your views? You wouldn't vote for Trump even if he had a "perfect" brain. I agree.

      There's nothing wrong with saying that instead of bringing dementia into it like a red herring.

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    5. My view is that Trump has dementia. It is not a hypothetical. It is a fact. That moots the rest of his behavior because no one with dementia can be president. But if Biden had dementia, I could not vote for him, but Trump would be too awful to support too, so I would not vote or I would write in someone sane.

      This is exactly the position that Nikki Haley supporters are in. They cannot vote for Trump but if he is the only Republican on the ballot they will have to decide whether to vote for Biden or not vote. Either way, that will hurt Trump.

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    6. But is itself mooted by the fact that you would never vote for Trump, ever. Your original framing was about you and your vote.

      I'm trying to teach you something about how logic works. Well, other readers could learn from it if you aren't interested in doing so yourself.

      Again, there's nothing wrong with just saying you would never vote for the guy. For you, it's not based on whether he has dementia or not. And again, I agree...

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    7. 1:48,
      I do this constantly with people who claim they have a problem with illegal immigrants, when the reality is they have a problem with immigrants.
      I tell them if they have a problem with illegal immigrants, they should contact their Congressional representatives and ask them what they are doing to streamline legal immigration, and make it easier to navigate.
      Most reply that we're too full already, or some other bullshit Hannity told them. At the end of the day, I blame it on what the mainstream media calls "economic anxiousness"

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    8. That's fair. I recognize your style and we often disagree. And I recognize how the subject for you is always, convienently, targeting the right exclusively with criticism. But that's a fair comparison.

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    9. Priorities. Once we bury the Republican Party under 60 feet of steel and concrete, we turn to the Democratic Party and say, "You're next".

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    10. Formal logic doesn't apply well to human thinking. That is one of the important findings of cognitive psychology. People reason probabilistically.

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    11. Oh the priorities comment that goes to the heart of it. How many empires and tryrants grew from such wishful thinking. I can't disagree more.

      Speaking of disagreeing, the formal logic comment is also wrong-headed and while there's truth to it, it's misleading in this context and it should certainly not be used as a bludgeon against people being logical in their commentary.

      But I'm shouting into the wind.

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    12. I'll explain that. While human thinking is more about probabilities than logic, based on how the brain works, we have language which offers us solid ways to communicate and represent ideas, behaviors, causes, dependencies, etc. in a logical manner. We communicate and share ideas that are logical. Our thinking about those ideas can stray from that logic. But that's more about how the brain functions and our ability to prioritize for survival. Old biological baggage if you will.

      Am I shouting into the wind again?

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    13. Insisting on formal logic prevents you from understanding what people are saying, what they mean. It interferes with communication.

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    14. So now it's formal logic instead of logic. Slippery. I'm moving on.

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  9. Trump was found liable for sexual abuse. He believes celebrity status allows you to assault women. He is almost certainly going to be the Republican nominee.

    Tell us again whose gender politics are gruesome?

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    1. Trump's certainly are, but don't lose sight of the fact that his behavior doesn't represent the standards of our culture. He even knows that, which is why he tried to hide his behavior with Stormy & Karen McDougal. He assaults women but he knows he would lose votes if anyone found out -- perhaps even void his prenup with Melania.

      It is interesting to consider whether the sexual politics are the same on the right and the left. The back-to-the-kitchen movement on the right suggests the right is closer to Trojan mores than the left. Now that people know about Stormy and Karen McDougal, it seems like the right condones that stuff as male prerogative while the left does not.

      This is why the gender gap, with women abandoning Trump in favor of Nikki Haley and Biden, is widening. Issues such as abortion rights and contraception hinge on male control over women, and whether to roll back gains made by feminists since 1950.

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    2. Nikki Haley? Don't make me laugh.

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    3. An Gaetz and Moore.

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    4. I'm not sure Trump would lose any voters based on treatment of women. I mean after everything that's been in the press, I think the remaining Trump supporters couldn't be swayed by anything he does in regards to anyone at this point.

      So now that you explored the women voters moving away from Trump, tackle this one, curious for your take. What's the reason?

      https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/07/black-hispanic-voters-democrat-republican-biden

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    5. Try this idea -- many if not most Hispanics support immigration and deplore the mistreatment of migrants at the border and in our court system. They often know people who have been through that wringer, or have been harrassed themselves by agents -- I know I have.

      When Biden first took office, he copied Trump's immigration activities and has been tightening them since then. While the right has been claiming the left has opened the border, the reality is that Biden has been just as strict and harsh in his treatment of migrants as Trump was, leaving in place Trump's measures. That might cause me to be critical of Biden's policies, but I doubt it would cause me to ever vote for Trump. We will see how many Hispanic votes Biden actually loses in November.

      As for black votes, Trump is toast. His stupid racist remarks to the Black Conservatives will not go over well with black voters who are independent or undecided, much less Democrats. Whatever hopes Trump may have had of attracting blacks on Feb 7 when your quoted article came out, say bye bye to them after Trump's ridiculous performance. It is offensive on its face that he thinks sneakers will win black votes because those black folks all love them sneakers, or that black people love him because of his mugshot and indictments, as if all black people are criminals or attracted to crime figures.

      Trump already lost votes based on treatment of women in 2020. He was asked what he would say to Republican soccer moms and Trump answered that 2020 was rigged, stolen, and whined about his loss. Nothing at all to say to women that would attract their votes.

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    6. So you chalk it up to immigration and then frame things like the Republicans are the only ones that pander to minorities, and no mention of the woke movement and how it could potentially turn away minorities. No mention of the two races being strong on traditional family values.

      So, quite a bit biased but I guess par for the course around here.

      Delete
    7. 12;53,
      I won't see it as a concern, until the Republican Party stops suppressing the votes of minorities.
      That's when you'll know there is really something to these claims.
      BTW, will those who are "strong on traditional values" refrain from voting, or will they vote for the rapist?

      Delete
    8. Changing the subject I see. Should I just surround my actual posts with criticism of the right in order to get you to stay focused on the subject better? No, that sounds like it would fail also.

      Delete
    9. I have a good friend who speaks to many people who are voting for Trump (including blacks and latinos) who says they don't like the "woke" Democratic Party telling them what to do, or how to act.
      I asked them why then would they vote for an authoritarian, who took away women's reproductive choices. He said, it isn't logical, but it is what it is.
      I told him there aren't that many illogical voters and, more likely, these people aren't being truthful to him about why they will vote for Trump.

      Delete
    10. What is an example of woke people telling anyone what to do or how to act?

      Delete
    11. Off the top of my head there's a law coming up for vote in Illinois that school children should have access to sexual transition surgery without their parent's consent. The minimum age is not clear to me maybe someone else knows. I saw it framed as any children in school. Right down to kindergarten?

      There's telling people what pronouns to call you. There's telling people they have to specify their pronouns, even if they don't want to (happens in corporate world.)

      This is my question: Was this an honest question by you 3:07?

      Delete
    12. Those don't seem as extreme as making women second-class citizens, or removing voters from the election rolls, but YMMV.

      Delete
    13. Did you not ask "What is an example of woke people telling anyone what to do or how to act?"

      Like nailing jello to a wall.

      Delete
    14. The bill pendig in Illinois is the opposite of what you claim. It says that doctors MAY NOT prescribe any sexual transition medical treatment without parental consent:

      "Creates the Youth Health Protection Act. Provides that a medical doctor shall not prescribe, provide, administer, or deliver puberty-suppressing drugs or cross-sex hormones and shall not perform surgical orchiectomy or castration, urethroplasty, vaginoplasty, mastectomy, phalloplasty, or metoidioplasty on biologically healthy and anatomically normal persons under the age of 18 for the purpose of treating the subjective, internal psychological condition of gender dysphoria or gender discordance."

      I think you are the one having a problem with honesty.

      People use pronouns as a courtesy, not mandate. Even in corporate world, anyone can stick to their preferred pronouns. No one is forcing anyone to change theirs against their will. Why would it be an imposition to tell someone else they want to be called he/him when male? This is like complaining because someone asked you what your name was.

      Look what my honest question got me. A huge lie about what Illinois is considering doing.

      Delete
  10. "Also, can we possibly see ourselves a bit more clearly as we thumb the pages of antique works of fiction?"

    No. We might do that if the characters were fully fleshed out, as in a modern work of fiction, but that isn't what the Iliad does. It is all plot and no character development.

    ReplyDelete
  11. I have yet to see Somerby refer to anything about the Iliad that isn't right at the beginning. I'll bet he hasn't read the whole thing, just as he only quotes from the beginnings of the other books he mentions here.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Intellectual laziness is a Right-wing trait. Go figure.

      Delete
    2. No, it's a human trait. You can't cast human behaviors over the fence and pretend they are exclusive to the others. Unless you think it scores political points and don't care about the validity of your comments. Oh right, it's probably that. My bad. The part where you label him a right-winger was the other giveaway. I'm slow today.

      Delete
    3. If I wanted to read the Iliad, I could read Wikipedia too.

      Delete
    4. It's fun to find faults with Somerby's writing by which to dismiss the entirety of his commentary. Let me try to break it down.

      1. He gets a fact wrong. That means everything he wrote is wrong.
      2. He is critical of a Republican or right-wing media. Obviously a waste of time since they aren't even worth commenting on.
      3. He is critical of a Democrat or left-wing/mainstream media. Is it a woman? He's a sexist. Otherwise, continue.
      4. He's trying to make it seem like both sides are equally bad and is a secret right-winger. Preference is to wrap up on 1-3 but 4 is the safety net.

      Delete
    5. 3. Is it a woman, black person, young person, academic (professor), journalist, expert then Somerby is exhibiting bias...FTFY

      4. This is not the safety net but the conclusion and bottom line. The rest is evidence in support of this, and there is plenty of it.

      Delete
    6. You've unknowingly indicted your own process. You know what? You're not all bad.

      Delete
    7. I consider it an indictment of Somerby. I am not the one writing the essays that I am criticizing.

      Delete
    8. You've admitted to bias, that you have a process in lieu of taking each contribution to Somerby on its own merits, that logical considerations are not what drives that process. With you yourself stating that if it's a woman or any minority then Somerby is prejudiced, if not he is a secret right-winger any way, as a catch all.

      You may or may not realize that what is described here (the process) is a subsitute for logical thinking and not an extension of it. So, you're unintentionally destroying your own position and it's interesting to observe.

      Delete
    9. *taking each contribution by Somerby

      Normally I let my errors slide but this error could mess up the intended meaning.

      Delete
    10. I did not admit to a process and yes, I do take each contribution of Somerby's on its own merits (such as they are), but Somerby repeats his themes and is predictable in his essays too. Do you think this is the first time he's mentioned Homer?

      If you were to cover up the name of the person being criticized, read the criticism and then go back and look to see who he is judging, it is nearly always someone in one of those categories (black, female, gay, professor, journalist, youngish, from an elite college). These are the people he hates.

      Being a right-winger is not mutually exclusive with attacking the idea of expertise, college education, minorities, etc. But I say that Somerby is a right winger because he so often repeats the right wing talking point of the day. And I point out explicitly how he is doing that in comments. I don't just name call him, I show that the right is saying the same thing he is saying.

      Accusing me of knee-jerk bias against Somerby is unfair given that I explain WHY I say what I do about him, on each particular day.

      I don't care whether you think I am destroying my own position. I care that readers here recognize when Somerby is presenting right wing memes under the guise of being liberal.

      Delete
    11. To be clear, you don't care about logic or anyone else's opinion. You have a dark obsession with daily criticizing Somerby's writing working with whatever you can scrub together. End justifies the means. A very poor "endorsement" of leftism. In fact, it will do more harm than good.

      But you don't care about my opinion, so I'm just here to expose what you're doing because I do care about the Left and I want it to be better.

      Delete
    12. I agree with 3:35. The posts of the daily troll are full of logical fallacies and an emotional fragile worldview that is counterproductive and weird and a poor endorsement of leftism. You make the left look like weak, illogical, closed-minded ninnies.

      Delete
    13. Do you really think that calling someone illogical is going to make them stop criticizing Somerby?

      Delete
    14. I'm saying the comments are consistently illogical and poorly represent liberals. I doubt if you can stop as it's an obsession and a core part of your life.

      Delete
    15. Did you get A’s in propositional logic? I did. How’d you do in probability? Stats? I taught those, as well as a course in Cognition. Your complaints, dressed up in accusations of illogic, are nothing more than a desire to attack my views without having any arguments. Other liberals are on their own and I do not represent them, nor do they represent me.

      Why would I want to let Somerby spew nonsense here uncontested? His goal is to elect Trump. I don’t want that. That doesn’t make me obsessed. It makes me a Biden supporter.

      Delete
    16. A course in cognition? That's a big subject for one course.

      Delete
    17. 5:41 Your comment itself is full of reasoning errors. (using academic achievements to dismiss opposing viewpoints, attacking motives instead of the argument, oversimplifying situations into a binary choice, claiming cause-and-effect relationships that don't logically follow, etc.)

      Delete
    18. I used the academic training as evidence that I am not illogical as charged (without stating the illogical part). One cannot attack arguments when none are stated.

      Delete
    19. Academic training doesn't precludes illogical reasoning.

      Delete
    20. Your reasoning that Somerby is not a liberal for instance doesn't hold up to logical scrutiny. Your whole schtick is dumb af.

      Delete
    21. Your complaint amounts to: Somerby does not blindly adhere to the party line across the board at every single minute, therefore he is not a liberal. No True Scotsman. So boring. You're boring.

      Delete
    22. He diverges from liberal values in too many ways to be liberal:
      1. He doesn’t believe racism exists.
      2. He doesn’t support any feminist issues.
      3. He is anti-immigrant.
      4. He supports sexual deviants like Roy Moore and Trump.
      5. He has never said anything tolerant toward LGBTQ+ people or supported gay marriage or rights.
      6. He supported banning Maus and book banning as a parental right.
      7. He opposed the 1/6 Committe hearing.
      8. He echoes right wing framing of Trump’s prosecutions as political persecution.
      9. He thought Ketanji Brown Jackson underqualified.
      10. He suggest Brett Kavanaugh was being targeted by a lying woman and objected to further investigation.
      11. He supported Zimmerman’s right to shoot Trayvon, the cop over Michael Brown, the cop over George Floyd, and objected to BLM.
      12. He defended a convicted rapist because his victim was passed out.
      13. He has never supported need to address climate change, said concern over lead in drinking water was overblown, doesn’t address House turmoil or budget govt shutdown.
      14. He opposes school desegregation even though minorities in desegregated schools do better.
      15. He dislikes mainstream media figures while excusing Tucker Carlson and Bill O’Reilly.
      And there is much more…

      This is way beyond No True Scotsman. He doesn’t adhere to much of the liberal belief system at all.

      Delete
    23. “1. He doesn’t believe racism exists.”

      I’d be more attentive to criticism of Bob if you didn’t do this shite.

      Delete
    24. You can't back up any of those accusations. They are just baseless claims. It's boring. You're boring.

      Delete
    25. Can you point out liberals by the way they repeat Right-wing grievances, or do you just do that with Somerby?

      Delete
  12. Yes, the pathetic and gruesome blue tribe has nothing else but the salacious sex-with-a-porn-star to go after modern-day Achilles Trump, he of the proud heart.

    Well, nothing except business fraud, theft of top secret documents, attempts to overturn an election, and insurrection.

    Other than that, zip. Zilch. Nada.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Bob says Menelaus is one of the sons of Agamemnon. That's wrong. He's one of the sons of Atreus, and thus Agamemnon's brother.

    Also, whatever the sexual politics of the Iliad may be, when Agamemnon sends Chryseis home, he swears that he has not touched her.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It seems to me that men of Homer's time may have been using the Iliad as a kind of porn, male fantasy material involving subjugation and degradation of the most beautiful women ever, without their consent.

      I hope day to day relations between men and women were more balanced and it seems likely they would be, given that "Happy wife, happy life" was probably as true then as now.

      I do find it amusing that prudish Somerby would be investing so much emotionally in the literature aspects of what is essentially a sexually graphic comic book, complete with heros and battles.

      Delete
    2. Thanks for sharing. Universities and scholars will continue their work.

      This is reminiscent of that seen in Tár where the young student wants to dismiss Bach's contributions to music because he was a CIS white male. You're unintentionally funny, so thanks indirectly for that.

      Delete
    3. seen should be scene, bots/trolls don't seem to check their spelling for homophones (still stupid that way)

      Tar is fiction

      Delete
    4. Tar (sic) is fiction! My point is dismantled!

      Was it intentional irony to not use the correct name of the film and to not punctuate? Nicely done!

      Delete
    5. I'm sure they'll be back to substantively comment about the correlation to the *scene* in Tár at any moment now...

      Delete
    6. The scene in Tar is an invention by the writer. We have no idea whether any real person exists who would have said such a thing. That makes it a waste of time to discuss. If the commenter's point is that concern about mistreatment of women is too woke for words, then we have nothing further to discuss. There are miscreants who think women are being whiny when they complain about sex trafficking. I think Somerby is perhaps one of them.

      Baiting people who care about various issues is just trolling.

      As I recall, Somerby disliked the movie Tar. (My computer does not produce diacritical marks.) Your Eastern European keyboards may be better for that purpose.

      Delete
    7. I don’t intend to see Tár, although I can type á with my iPhone. Bach’s music is immortal.

      Delete
    8. Allegorical correlations are invalid when they are referencing a piece fiction? As a way to avoid commenting on the similarities. Okay. It's fun to make up quasi-intellectual reasons for just plain avoidance.

      These comments contain a lot of life lessons (of how not to live life.)

      Delete
    9. Lydia Tár: If Bach's talent can be reduced to his gender, birth country, religion, sexuality, and so on, then so can yours.

      Delete
    10. Tar was offered as an example of a certain behavior (presumably out-of-control wokeness expressing a ridiculous view for specious reasons). It matters that it was fiction because there may not exist any such silliness, making that example a strawman. Sometimes fiction depicts reality in the sense that it could have happened. Sometimes it depicts unreality. There is no Frankenstein monster ever created. Using Frankenstein as an example of such a monster would be misleading. Bridge of Sighs portrayed a man who never left his small hometown in his long lifetime. There could be such people, although it seems unlikely these days.

      However one feels about Bach, portraying the left as full of such silliness is unfair, especially when a fictional example is presented. I have never heard anyone express an opinion on a person's musical legacy based on their sex like that, not even any feminist or misguided college student. That makes it specious.

      Delete
    11. No, I presented the example and not for the reasons you said.

      I presented it because the Iliad was being dismissed as a source of knowledge because of its issues with fair treatment of women, in much the same way as Bach was dismissed for being a CIS white male.

      It's part of a greater pattern.

      The further point Cecelia was touching on was what better way to cement our current understanding of sexual prejudices and to acknowledge the improvements we've made, and study the dynamics of how it used to work so we can hold steadfast against the possible return of it, than to study the period of history when those prejudices were omnipresent.

      Just so readers don't get mislead by the mischaracterization by 2:41 that apparently can't be bothered to use brain cells on anything but attacking Somerby.

      Delete
    12. There is nothing in the Iliad or Tar that has any relevance to today's politics.

      Delete
  14. “This is another reason why we cannot learn anything from ancient Troy. Their standards for most behavior are not ours. Any wisdom Somerby might find in Homer's words is tainted by this mistreatment of female human beings”

    So we can’t learn anything from the history of female subjugation though this impulse is ubiquitous, despite laws and social norms, and still apt to present itself in a number of insidious ways. The newest way now includes the negating of the biological basis of gender and the physical differences between the sexes. That results in biological women being more constrained by their physiology.Not less.

    There goes concepts such as micro-aggression, institutional privilege, nationalism, and good ole sexism. We’re the New Man.

    No, we don’t have a thing to learn from the past.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Mistreatment of women is not ubiquitous but deviant, that is why it is against the law. It hurts people, undermines marriage and family, and is bad for society. All crimes on the books occur but liberals disagree with conservatives about how frequent crime is, and the stats are with liberals not conservatives, whose fear may magnify their feeling that crime is rampant when it is objectively not.

      Gender identity has nothing to do with crime. And the rest of whatever you meant to say about micro-aggressions is garbled and incoherent.

      What we have already learned from the past is to treat women as coequal human beings without allotting special privileges to men.

      I don't have a clue what you mean by biological women being more constrained by physiology now. I suppose you think that is why more women are being educated than ever before, working outside the home, assuming leadership positions, performing in the arts? Because of all those constraints?

      Think your ideas through before you begin writing and then express yourself in a way that will make sense to other people.

      Delete
    2. Yeah Cecelia. I didn't even have the patience to break down my issues with that "logic" to the extent you did.

      See my comment about Tár above. Have you seen it?

      Delete
    3. "Think your ideas through before you begin writing and then express yourself in a way that will make sense to other people. "

      Oh. Hahaha! This is rich even for the insane person!

      Delete
    4. Real women are short.

      Delete
    5. Anonymouse 12:34pm, historically, the subjugation of women has been ubiquitous, the fact that it has taken laws to institute our protection and to enshrine our rights as being equal to men, attests to that.

      It may be deviant behavior now to rape your wife, however, in fairly recent history, that was not the case.

      It’s interesting to me that people who are the most vocal about phenomena such as micro-aggression, race privilege, and heteronormativity, etc, argue that we can glean nothing about ourselves from the past. My guess is this opinion, as always, is dependent upon what Bob is blogging.

      Delete
    6. Acceptance of transgender somehow apparently leads back, according to Cecelia, to the subjugation of women. That’s a new one.

      Delete
    7. Anonymouse 12:47pm, and have good dispositions.

      Delete
    8. Suomynona, you can accept that some people feel that they are the opposite of their biological sex, and wish to dress and comport themselves in that manner, without forcing all of society to turn biology on its head.

      Delete
    9. The great injustice of our time is inequality in incarceration. So many more men than women are in prison.

      Delete
    10. Cecelia, your refusal to accept such people stems from your own belief that it “turns biology on its head”.

      Delete
    11. Anonymouse 1:30pm, where are the Ivy League protesters?

      Delete
    12. "My guess is this opinion, as always, is dependent upon what Bob is blogging." - Cecelia

      Yes, like a windsock.

      Delete
    13. Soumynoma 1:30pm, it does turn biology on its head and makes it matter it a matter of feeling.

      This will never happen with race. A white person, raised by parents of color, will never be allowed to claim minority status based upon their perception of themselves. The culture of whiteness will still be in play. That is not the case for transgenders, we ascribe no privilege as to their biological gender or race in the way we do cis white males and females.

      This new ethos is contrived from the floor up.

      Delete
    14. There have always been people who dressed and behaved like women while being male and vice versa. Some more openly so than others. It didn't turn biology on its head. It was either accepted, tolerated, or people didn't realize it was happening, but it has always existed. Some cultures have a word for such a person, others don't.

      Historically, not all cultures have subjugated women and not all have been as unequal as our own, just as not all countries have institutionalized slavery to the extent that ours did. This new book has examples:

      Femina: A New History of the Middle Ages, Through the Women Written Out of It
      by Janina Ramirez (Author)

      "The Middle Ages are seen as a bloodthirsty time of Vikings, saints and kings; a patriarchal society that oppressed and excluded women. But when we dig a little deeper into the truth, we can see that the “Dark” Ages were anything but.

      Oxford and BBC historian Janina Ramirez has uncovered countless influential women’s names struck out of historical records, with the word FEMINA annotated beside them. As gatekeepers of the past ordered books to be burned, artworks to be destroyed, and new versions of myths, legends and historical documents to be produced, our view of history has been manipulated."

      https://www.amazon.com/Femina-History-Middle-Through-Written/dp/1335498524/ref=asc_df_1335498524/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=598233672120&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7983113681995452351&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9028791&hvtargid=pla-1675888723346&psc=1&mcid=0ca2fb00b8a03b249f87521701741692&gclid=CjwKCAiArfauBhApEiwAeoB7qLfDPXBUwnpUauII1BBpYItpJb-KduwpWOQtHWFWpZq83zyIaYhXExoChdcQAvD_BwE

      Delete
    15. Contrived is the right word.

      Reminds me what James Loewen said about history, on the subject of cleaning it up to make it more patriotic and less controversial. He basically said it's what makes students disengage and find the subject boring, they can sense bullshit.

      Anyway, I'll just give a recommendation for his stuff while I'm at it. Lies My Teacher Told Me. Lies Across America. He also wrote about sundown towns. An independent thinker that doesn't cowtow to left or right dogma.

      Delete
    16. 2:15 I don't know if you were the one arguing we should ignore the Iliad. But if you were, you just destroyed your own argument. Again.

      Delete
    17. Cecelia confidently says that a white person raised black could not pass for black. There have been examples of people who have done that too.

      https://www.vox.com/2015/6/15/8784327/passing-white-black

      Near Black: White-to-Black Passing in American Culture by Baz Dreisinger

      Then there are people like Leon Redbone, a white jazz guitarist who many people think is black but is actually Armenian.

      Instead of trying to put people into categories, Cecelia might do better to treat each person as an individual and let them define themselves. That is what the left argues -- tolerance not pigeon-holing and prescribing behavior to others.

      Delete
    18. If an ethos is more fair to people and makes society better for all involved, does it matter whether it is contrived or not?

      Delete
    19. Anonymouse 2:32pm, people have “passed” as being a person of another color due to having some physical traits that are indicative of that race.

      The expression “passed” means to be perceived as something you are not.

      I was largely reared by a black couple while my dad worked.

      I couldn’t pass as black because I have the skin coloring that Marilyn Manson likes in girlfriends and because you’d never let me no matter what I claimed about my experiences and feelings.

      No one categorizes more than liberals. It’s almost impossible to keep up with the ever more ridiculous terms you’ve hacked up for people based upon nothing but saw dust.





      Delete
    20. People categorize themselves, Cecelia. It’s people like you that reject them if they run afoul of your religious/moral world view.

      Delete
    21. Cecelia has never heard of the one-drop rule. They would accept her as black if she claimed that she had one drop, no matter what she looked like.

      Under segregation, there have been white men who have fallen in love with black women and "passed" as black in order to live in a black neighborhood, because the wife would never be allowed to live in a white neighborhood under segregation. If asked, such men claimed to be black and no one disputed that. They raised families under such conditions.

      Delete
    22. "It’s people like you that reject them if they run afoul of your religious/moral world view. "

      As opposed to your own complete lack of ethics, and willing to contort logic and misrepresent and misquote all day long as long as it supports the left.

      Seeing someone's static, persistent moral values as a negative when one has this perspective is but a further aspect of the rejection of all that is sane for the sake of politics.

      Delete
    23. None of my women have tears in their eyes.

      Delete
    24. Anonymouse 3:26pm, but liberals wouldn’t accept me as black, despite my being in that culture and if I said that I feel black, therefore I am a black person in a white society.

      You wouldn’t even if I said “please”.

      Delete
    25. Soumynoma, who have I rejected?

      Delete
    26. Why would it matter to you whether black people accepted you as black? If you thought of yourself as black, your sense of yourself is all that would matter.

      Billy Paul sang a song called "Am I Black Enough for You?" It appears he was sensitive to claims that being rich and famous as a singer, he was not doing enough for civil rights and black politics. Even if you were as black as Billy Paul, someone might consider you insufficiently black, given that black people have judged each other based on their activism. It is a contest you cannot win even if you are black. But ultimately, who cares?

      Among Native Americans, what matters is tribal recognition and affiliation. But that is because there are benefits available to tribe members, and it makes sense that tribes should define their own constituents for those purposes. But Elizabeth Warren did have some Cherokee ancestry, so she wasn't wrong, even though she wasn't very Indian either. That's why she apologized -- she didn't want to be seen as a race grifter.

      But as long as you weren't trying to claim unearned benefits or steal other people's heritage, no one would care what you called yourself. You might be seen as "that eccentric lady down the street" but there would be no harm in whatever you called yourself.

      So, why do you care what gender someone identifies as? It has nothing to do with you. And before you argue that transfemale swimmers should compete against women, keep in mind that most women's sports now are advocating for the chance for female atheletes to practice and compete against men -- because it makes the women better atheletes to compete against the best possible opponents. Top competitors feel that way. The others are going to lose anyway, and they should if they are not as good.

      If everyone were gender-fluid, it might take the emphasis off gender and give everyone a chance to be valued for what they can do as individuals, not as female or male individuals. Do men really feel like better swimmers if their advantage is due to qualities they had no part in acquiring?

      I really wish that conservatives would tend their own gardens and stop pointing fingers at other people who are minding their own business.

      My heart goes out to the student Nex, who died because some girls beat her up in a school bathroom, over nothing more important than her clothing or hairstyle. It makes me angry when I think of her trouble and then read ignorant and bigoted statements like yours here, Cecelia.

      Delete
    27. Trans people should be taxed by the government for being such a pain in the ass.

      Delete
    28. “as long as it supports the left.” So, not rejecting someone for being different is leftist? Guilty as charged, I guess.

      Delete
    29. Anonymouse 4:44pm. I was several times pushed down on the floor of a black church in order to receive the Holy Spirit. They didn’t care that I am not black. They wanted me to receive the Holy Spirit as a child of God. Even if I happened to be the direct descendant of Columbus, which I am not.

      You dumb political clown.

      Delete
    30. So that’s what happened to Cecelia. She received the Holy Spirit, and she’s never been the same.

      Delete
    31. David in CA is a nice guy, but he never received the Holy Spirit.

      Delete
    32. “And before you argue that transfemale swimmers should compete against women, keep in mind that most women's sports now are advocating for the chance for female atheletes to practice and compete against men -- because it makes the women better athletes to compete against the best possible opponents (MEN) Top competitors feel that way. The other women are going to lose anyway, and they should if they are not as good as (MEN).

      So let’s take it as as a given that wives and female athletes and women in general have an equal playing field as to men. Let’s take it that these women should thank their lucky stars that they are competing against men.

      However did we need women’s lib in the first place, God knows ladies, it’s merely your insecurities that have made you less confident as to wrestling men.

      Delete
    33. No one is going to forcibly push a little girl down on a church floor, which suggests Cecelia is male.

      Delete
    34. Cecelia is a big girl.

      Delete
    35. Cecelia is lying.

      Delete
    36. Anonhmouse 9; 34pm, all hail, Miss Michigan.

      Delete
    37. Anonymouse 9:34pm, they don’t “forcibly” do it. The female (not males) parishioners ask you to kneel with them. Some people stand and bend over you.They press on you with their hands- the laying on of hands. They all pray (loudly) at once. It’s quite the scene. My father got a kick out of it after I told him that it didn’t frighten me.

      It’s interesting that anonymices say that men wouldn’t push a girl down, and the men there didn’t touch me.. You know and suggest that to do otherwise would have been unseemly. However, a transwoman in a bathroom or locker room with women or girls is fine. Anyone who differs with you on that is a bigot.

      Delete
    38. “Anonymouse 4:44pm: My heart goes out to the student Nex, who died because some girls beat her up in a school bathroom, over nothing more important than her clothing or hairstyle. It makes me angry when I think of her trouble and then read ignorant and bigoted statements like yours here, Cecelia.”

      They don’t know the cause of Nex’s death. It’s not unusual for teenagers to make fun of other students’ various pieces of attire. I had it happen to me in those days, in benign and friendly ways and in more arch ones.

      Nex pored water on these students for laughing at her. Then it went physical sadly, unfortunately, tragically.

      We don’t know the cause of her death. She was examined in the hospital ER and released.

      Perhaps you should wait before you use the deceased as a weapon on a blogboard.

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  15. 2:20 says: “I don't know if you were the one arguing we should ignore the Iliad. But if you were, you just destroyed your own argument. Again.”

    First of all, the Iliad is a work of fiction. Second, perhaps 2:20 could enlighten us on the case Somerby has made for how the Iliad is relevant to “ourselves” or the current political campaign.

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    1. So what have you got against fiction anyway? You reject the concept that we can learn from fiction, how strange.

      Anyway, you're off base as usual. It's not 100% fiction, far from it.

      "The more that is known about Bronze Age history, the clearer it becomes that it is not a yes-or-no question, but one of assessing of how much historical knowledge is present in Homer, and of what historical period."

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_the_Iliad

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    2. And with that, I'm worn out. I think the two crazies might have had a valid point or two, but they didn't connect it to anything and make it stick. So I give 'em a D today for at least not being completely wrong on everything.

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    3. We have no way of knowing what % of Homer is fiction but it is 100% irrelevant.

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    4. Anonymouse 4:51pm, we can only count on anonymices and Bud Light.

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    5. I notice no one actually tried to meet my original challenge at 2:38, to explain the case Somerby has made for how the Iliad is relevant to “ourselves” or the current political campaign. No takers? Interesting.

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    6. Anonymouse 6:53pm, you’re an utter idiot to suggest that “works of fiction” aren’t relevant to the human condition.

      But we knew that.

      As to Bob making an utterly definitive case as to Homer and 2024, do it, Bob. Let’s see you unabashedly and straight forwardly do it.

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    7. As I clearly said, some is and some isn’t. This isn’t.

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    8. Anonhmouse 10:33pm, per reason of your Bob standard.

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  16. To me it would be interesting is someone here said “Wow, the parallels Bob draws between Homer and our situation now are really insightful!! They really shed a lot of light on what we are going through with our politics today!!”
    That would seem all but impossible to me.
    I don’t know these classics as perhaps I should but I do know Bob has shown a willful laziness in trying to understand the situation with Trump in any meaningful way. He seems proud of remaining lazy and nonsensical on the subject. This seems to have something to do with a deep seated folly about his good friends and neighbors.
    But whatever, The striking element Bob ignores in the Stormy Daniels affair is its hypocrisy, given the Right’s near destruction of Bill Clinton. Bob once carried a great deal about how events relating to the Clintons were distorted. He either gave up or changed his mind.

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    1. I am waiting for anyone to draw a meaningful parallel.

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    2. I can't see a MEANINGFUL parallel, or any other useful point to it (in terms of elucidating current affairs). And yet I'm fully enjoying Bob's discussion of it. He's a consummate teacher.

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    3. A teacher wouldn’t say there were parallels when there aren’t or pretend Homer wrote history without knowing whether he existed, nor call kidnapping and rape “sexual politics” a term that demeans women.

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    4. The key word is "meaningful." OF COURSE there are parallels -- the most obvious one being two "tribes," each trying to defeat the other. And Bob has addressed the history question. He has pointed out that it's not certain if Homer was the author, and he has pointed out that it's not known what if anything in the Iliad is historical. He then moved on from that utterly pedantic, irrelevant bullshit. He has used terms such as "sexual slave" as often as he has used any other. And his use of trendy, up-to-the-minute contemporary terms such "gender politics" is a common way teachers get students to compare/contrast their taken-for-granted contemporary world with an utterly foreign/ancient one. If you're not enjoying Bob's re-visitation of an ancient culture via the vehicle of a seminal piece of literature, don't let the door hit you.

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    5. His use of “gender politics” is sarcasm, which makes it offensive.

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    6. Bob fears the second coming of Trump and a years long war and anonymices think that saying “hold my beer” should appease him.

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    7. Referring to a second term as the second coming makes you sound like a Q-Anon moron. We already have a war in Ukraine that Trump is sabotaging. Does Somerby think Putin will stop there? Biden is the best bet to stop wars.

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    8. Cecelia is Somerby whispering again, telling us what Somerby thinks.

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    9. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    10. Anonhmouse 10:31pm. referring a second term of Trump as the second coming makes me sound as alarmist as you. That’s because you’re an alarmist. Zzzzzzzz..,,,,

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  17. It's only offensive to you, because you have an axe to grind.

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    1. Women’s rights are not an “axe to grind”.

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    2. The stuff about the historical times, the likely existence of the war(s), and Homer’s authorship is all info I provided in comments, not background from Somerby. He only summarizes the plot, leaning on Wikipedia. He prefers to pretend it is all true, not consider archeological history and controversies. How could anyone have known what Helen (if she existed at all) said to Priam (if he existed)? Of course they cannot, not even sacred Homer (who may or may not have existed as a single person with that name). And we’re supposed to draw parallels?

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    3. "Women’s rights are not an “axe to grind”" Hilarious. Straw man much?

      @10.27: give it up. You're outta your element, Donny. Bob addressed the historicity question: https://dailyhowler.blogspot.com/2024/02/people-troy-fell-during-brone-age-war.html

      Question to you, my on-the-spectrum friend: when Bob says that the gods told him to record the history of Biden v. Trump, do you take him literally?

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    4. then you're what Redd Foxx would call, and i quote, a "big dummy"

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    5. Redd was a great thinker. I take him, and you, seriously.

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