PEOPLE: Seeing ourselves in a very old text!

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 15, 2024

In search of historic Troy: Was there ever some such city as the ancient walled fortress memorialized in The Iliad and remembered today as Troy?

Inquiring minds decided that they wanted to know. We assigned the youthful analysts this task.

They could have consulted the flight of birds, as people frequently do. Instead they conducted hours of dogged research. 

Eventually, they gifted us with this compilation of their findings:

Troy

Troy or Ilion was an ancient city located in present-day Hisarlik, Turkey. It is best known as the setting for the Greek myth of the Trojan War. The archaeological site is open to the public as a tourist destination, and was added to the UNESCO World Heritage list in 1998.

Troy was repeatedly destroyed and rebuilt during its 4000 years of occupation. As a result, the site is divided into nine archaeological layers, each corresponding to a city built on the ruins of the previous. Archaeologists refer to these layers using Roman numerals, Troy I being the earliest and Troy IX being the latest.

Troy was first settled around 3600 BC and grew into a small fortified city around 3000 BC (Troy I). Among the early layers, Troy II is notable for its wealth and imposing architecture. During the Late Bronze Age, Troy was called Wilusa and was a vassal of the Hittite Empire. The final layers (Troy VIII-IX) were Greek and Roman cities which served as tourist attractions and religious centers because of their link to mythic tradition.

The site was excavated by Heinrich Schliemann and Frank Calvert starting in 1871. Under the ruins of the classical city, they found the remains of numerous earlier settlements. Several of these layers resemble literary depictions of Troy, leading some scholars to conclude that there is a kernel of truth underlying the legends. Subsequent excavations by others have added to the modern understanding of the site, though the exact relationship between myth and reality remains unclear and there is no definitive evidence for a Greek attack on the city.

Four thousand years of human occupation! At times like these, we're visited by the soul of Carlotta Valdes. In Alfred Hitchcock's Vertigo, she seizes the soul of the Kim Novak character as that character and Scottie stand beneath a grove of California's redwood trees.

The trees are the world's oldest living things, she is told. As you can see in the screenplay, she's told that the trees have stood for two thousand years or more.

"What are you thinking?" she is then asked. 

"Of all the people who have been born, and have died, while the trees went on living," she says.

At any rate, there were nine successive versions of prehistoric and historical Troy, or so the analysts tell us. The Iliad would have recorded a siege of something like the seventh iteration. 

That Troy is portrayed in the following way in that ancient war poem:

Troy

[...]

The Iliad portrays Troy as the capital of a rich and powerful kingdom. In the poem, the city appears to be a major regional power capable of summoning numerous allies to defend it. 

The city itself is described as sitting on a steep hill, protected by enormous sloping stone walls, rectangular towers, and massive gates whose wooden doors can be bolted shut. According to Dares Phrygius, there were six such gates ...The city's streets are broad and well-planned. At the top of the hill is the Temple of Athena as well as King Priam's palace, an enormous structure with numerous rooms around an inner courtyard.

In the Iliad, the Achaeans set up their camp near the mouth of the Scamander river, where they beached their ships. The city itself stood on a hill across the plain of Scamander, where much of the fighting takes place. 

That was the Troy of the ancient war poem. The poem describes the conclusion of a ten-year siege which, like many contemporary journalistic events, most likely didn't occur.

Our question: Can we possibly see ourselves in that ancient poem? 

The Iliad records a lengthy siege of the city of Troy. Today, the redder portion of our nation is conducting a siege of the Biden White House, even as our own blue tribe is conducting a much more high-minded judicial siege of former president Trump.

For all our struggles, our blue tribe has slipped behind in a series of polls as we stage our own lengthy siege. Can we learn to see ourselves more clearly in the beautifully crafted episodes of the western world's first and greatest war poem?

In our view, we need to see ourselves more clearly! Can the episodes of this ancient poem help us accomplish this task?

Tomorrow, we'll explore that basic question in a bit more detail, For today, we'll only add this:

At least in the Robert Fagles translation, many of the Iliad's characters are extremely hard to distinguish from people like us who are living today—from contemporary people like us. 

Their concerns are our concerns, as the Mariel Hemingway character tells the Woody Allen character in the slightly peculiar 1970 film, Manhattan. 

In the end, are we all just a bunch of people? When we observe the characters in The Iliad, do their impulses and their reactions possibly seem to be a great deal like ours?

Tomorrow, we'll look at the headstrong conduct of Agamemnon, lord of men—the angry conduct which kickstarts the story of this poem right in its opening lines. Today, let's consider one small passage which comes from the poem's Book Nine, out of twenty-four books in all.

After ten years of struggle, the Achaeans (the Greeks) are losing ground in their attempt to sack Troy. Agamemnon, lord of men now suffers a virtual nervous breakdown. 

Nestor the seasoned charioteer leaps to his feet to rally the troops—to maintain unity in the ranks.

Nestor's speech to the headstrong young Diomedes is one of our favorite passages in all of literature (though in fairness, we aren't well-read). Two captains are then dispatched to make "the embassy to Achilles"—to the mighty warrior who is sulking in his tents and is refusing to fight.

Achilles is the greatest warrior in any of the armies assembled on either side of this siege. That said, his fury is vast, and it has already lasted through nine books of the lengthy poem. 

We'll focus on Odysseus here. To our eye and ear, we're seeing a contemporary person as Fagles offers these beautiful lines:

So Ajax and Odysseus made their way at once
where the battle lines of breakers crash and drag,
praying hard to the god who moves and shakes the earth
that they might bring the proud heart of Achilles
round with speed and ease.

For the record, several key moments in this poem occur "where the breakers crash and drag." 

In this moment, Odysseus is walking toward a council with Achilles, praying hard to the god who moves and shakes the earth—by inference, possibly trembling a bit—that his embassy to this mightiest warrior might be accomplished "with speed and ease."

We see our own modern selves in those beautifully rendered lines. That may simply reflect the choices of translator Fagles. Consider this question, though:

How many lawyers have walked into a meeting with Donald J. Trump praying hard that they might be able to bring the proud heart of Donald J. Trump around to their views—that they might even be able to win him over with something like speed and ease?

We don't want to trivialize our undertaking by drawing simplistic comparisons. That said, first cousins to many events from our modern political era appear in The Iliad's first few pages, and many behaviors of the poem's characters may seem familiar to those of us who have followed the events of our own political age.

Here within our own blue tribe, can we come to see ourselves somewhere in these beautifully crafted human stories? Within the European tradition, they're the first such stories ever recorded, and as such they can also be numbered among the simplest and most clearly rendered.

Can we blue tribe members see ourselves in such a way as to help us improve our game? Especially if we lose November's election, we'll need to enter a period in which we wonder how that consequential sacking could possibly have occurred.

Can we see ourselves in this ancient war poem? If so, can that act of recognition possibly be of some use?

People needing people, the famous singer said. Can we contemporary people see ourselves in the fictionalized stories of the ancient people who conducted, and who opposed, the eventual sacking of the towering walls of the somewhat historic Troy?

Tomorrow: Agamemnon, lord of men, and his angry rebuke of Achilles


130 comments:


  1. "At least in the Robert Fagles translation, many of the Iliad's characters are extremely hard to distinguish from people like us who are living today—from contemporary people like us. "

    If you accept the "bicameral mind" theory, ancient Greeks of the Iliad period were totally unlike us.

    But then it seems quite possible that you liberals turned bicameral too, back in 2016. If that's so, then yes, the Iliad's characters are extremely hard to distinguish from people like you. Sadly.

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    1. Julian Jaynes wrote The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, to explain such things as auditory hallucinations and multiple personality disorder. The theory was controversial in the 1960s but is now thoroughly debunked:

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17509238/#:~:text=In%201976%20Julian%20Jaynes%20published,development%20of%20the%20conscious%20mind.

      That said, it is possible for the early Greeks to be totally unlike us without lacking a unitary conscious sense of self, simply because their experiences were very different from our own. For example, nearly all people in our current society are literate and educated in other ways. That was untrue of the Greeks. Greeks believed in multiple Gods who interfered daily in their lives. We do not. We have technology and health care that works, they did not. And so on.

      That makes this a hugely fatuous comparison, in my opinion. It is also a major diversion, a refusal or abdication by Somerby of any interest in current events or the media, his ostensible reason for being here. What is he avoiding, and why?

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    2. Americans have asthma from red lined highways and get shot going to church. But at least they aren't majority polytheistic.

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    3. Yes, as I said, our lives are very different than those of the Greeks or Trojans in the time described by Homer in the Iliad (which was hundreds of years removed from his own lifetime, assuming Homer lived at all). Greeks had asthma too but they didn't know how to treat it or what caused it, so they couldn't do much about it. Living in a hut with an open fire was probably not good for those with asthma in those times. Praying to their gods did nothing to help.

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    4. How many children/adults are saved by inhalers? Look at the decrease in childhood mortality in our society compared to less developed nations (the closest analog to ancient Greeks and Trojans).

      But my point is that so many things are different that it is unlikely people in ancient times thought about themselves or their world as we do. If you must have 10 children to ensure a handful reach maturity, how does that change your attachment to your kids? Some cultures do not name a child until it reaches 1 year old because it is too likely to die and detachment is protective psychologically. What is a culture like that does not attach to its kids? Throw in belief in reincarnation or an afterlife where people can become gods themselves, and how casual will their attitudes be about dying in war? Or death? Our appreciation of the finality of death makes some people more frightened of it than anyone was in those old days that Somerby is obsessed with. And those more frightened people tend to become Republicans. Without that fear, what would the parties be like in ancient Greece and what would drive their priorities and concerns?

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    5. There were exactly zero moonbats and wokies among the Spartans, that's for sure. Lucky bastards.

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    6. Although they did practice post-birth abortion. Moonbats would love it.

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    7. Anonymouse 9:27am, thanks. I had not heard of the bicameral mind theory.

      This is interesting:

      https://www.thrillist.com/entertainment/nation/westworld-bicameral-mind-theory-real

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    8. @2:59 PM
      You're welcome. And actually Jaynes' book is a good read, as I remember. Or at least the beginning of it, before he goes too deep into it. You can easily find a free pdf.

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    9. As I said, the book's theory is discredited by current psychologists and neuroscientists. It is a classic of early psychology which has been superseded by 60 years of subsequent research.

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    10. Anonymouse 3:18pm, that doesn’t making it less interesting.

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    11. Why would you be interested in a theory that has been proven wrong in the light of better facts?

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    12. I don’t have two camels in my mind. I don’t have any camels in my mind.

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    13. Anonymouse 4:12pm, in the same way it’s interesting that people once thought the earth was the center of the solar system.

      There’s much to be discerned about past eras from their presumptions and ideas.

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    14. Reading long discredited theories is not the way to learn psychology unless you’re at the graduate level. Are you?

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    15. Ancient Greece didn't have highway pollution causing asthma. How backward of them.

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  2. I research what I sayFebruary 15, 2024 at 9:55 AM

    It's not a bad thing that Biden is afraid of losing the election. It's forcing him to publish criticism of grocery store price gouging which along with rent and diapers hurts everyday Americans. That's what elections are supposed to do is hold politicians accountable.

    But the media are failing to discuss greedflation intelligently and the level of violence that Trump has already and will continue try to normalize in America.
    Trump's shadow secretary is already talking about how colonialism should make a comeback.

    This should not be a hard election to win. Why is it?

    https://theintercept.com/2024/02/10/erik-prince-off-leash-imperialism-colonialism/

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    1. The NY Times are more concerned with getting corporate tax breaks than they are with Trump.

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    2. NY times runs occasional op ed on the subject but doesn't cover it nearly as much as it covers Israel these days.

      "The longer inflation lasts and the more widespread it is, the more air cover it gives companies to raise prices."

      https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/05/opinion/us-companies-inflation.html

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    3. The old world is dying and the new is struggling to be born. We live in the time of monsters.

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    4. The New York Times and Washington Post both steer the subject to the polite centrist agenda of cutting Medicare and increasing unemployment. They're rich assholes. But every now and then if you pay attention sometimes someone will get published speaking the truth.

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    5. Here's New York Times calling for 10 percent unemployment:

      https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/14/business/economy/powell-fed-inflation-volcker.html

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    6. IMO an unbiased media would give so much coverage to Biden's obvious acceptance of bribery that the Dems would be forced to choose a different, and better, candidate. That a strange candidate llike Trump is at all competitive shows that the media has lost a lot of influence.

      More and more Americans are waking up to the bias and unreliability of the media. All the media is unreliable, from FoxNews and CNN to the New York Times, NBC, ABC and CBS.

      I recognize the media's unreliability, but I am most unhappy about it. Substack is now providing thoughtful, less biased analysis, for the few who go there.

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    7. Nearly every politician is bribed under the current system. Some just do it with more or less obviousness

      I recommend folding organizations dedicated to researching webs of political influence. I highly recommend Source Watch:

      https://www.sourcewatch.org/

      One possible solution to the media greed is to give people a voucher to buy whatever subscription they want. This will increase competition beyond whatever Jeff Bezos feels like printing in the Post and what the New York elite want to tell us in the Times.

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    8. I recommend finding*

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    9. There is no evidence of Biden acceptance of bribery, David. You're just a fucking liar.

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    10. Yes, no evidence of acceptance of bribery. I just volunteered to being Mykola Zlochevsky's bitch. And Mykola Zlochevsky just volunteered to pay my son millions for a no-show job. It's all squeaky clean. I guarantee it. I am Gorby.

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    11. Speakie de english, magat trollboy?

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    12. Is it you, Mykola?

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    13. That's a genuine Gorby comment. (Of course it's not Mikhail Gorbachev.)

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    14. It's pretty common before wartime to see governments start to influence each other like that. The British secret service did a lot of work prepping the US to go into WW2. It's how the war machine works.

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    15. There is no such thing as a war machine. There are people who fail in diplomacy and mobilize for war but they do not use a machine to do that. It is a collective effort of society to achieve military goals.

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    16. David in CalFebruary 15, 2024 at 11:05 AM
      IMO an unbiased media would give so much coverage to Biden's obvious acceptance of bribery


      DiC - always wrong, but never in doubt.

      LOL
      Special counsel charges FBI informant with lying to the bureau about Hunter and Joe Biden

      Story by Ryan J. Reilly and Gary Grumbach and Sarah Fitzpatrick • 2h

      WASHINGTON — An FBI informant has been indicted on two counts of allegedly feeding the bureau false information about President Joe Biden and his son Hunter Biden during the 2020 presidential campaign.

      Alexander Smirnov, 43, disliked Joe Biden and was arrested in Las Vegas after returning from a trip overseas, according to the Justice Department. The case grew out of the special counsel investigation being led by David Weiss, who is also leading the case against Hunter Biden. Weiss had been appointed by then-President Donald Trump as the top federal prosecutor in Delaware.

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  3. The RNC is thinking about dropping Trump from the ticket, and replacing him with Tucker Carlson.
    I'm told, they believe Tucker is just as much of a bigot and is as in the pocket of Putin as Trump, but without Trump's dirty diaper smell, which is turning off voters.

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    1. Meanwhile if someone says free Palestine and free healthcare they'll be accused of living in a fantasy....

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    2. Gaza was essentially free, and Oct 7 was the result. No Israeli government will allow that to happen again.

      Free health care would be great, but where will it come from? Who will pay for it? Who will provide it? There's already shortage of doctors in the US. The federal deficit is around $2 trillion and predicted to grow without limit.

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    3. Healthcare that's free at the point of service would be paid for by the government rather than a hostage exchange between an array of insurance companies who make money by denying you care.

      Free health clinics already have a history in the US. "Overall, there were free health clinics in 13 cities nationwide in the late 1960s and early 1970s"
      https://time.com/5937647/black-panther-medical-clinics-history-school-covid-19/

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    4. And where will the government obtain such money to pay for free healthcare?

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    5. We can simply use the money we pay current insurance to fund a better system.

      Most of the developed world has better health economics than the US because we have a massive lockdown on political speech that goes against the American Medical Association lobbyists.

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    6. Yes, Big Pharma and insurance companies do operate a racket.

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    7. Gaza is bombed routinely, their fishermen are routinely shot at, they are shot getting too close to the fences, they have to go through checkpoints to go to jobs. If that's freedom would you allow people to wish that on Americans?

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    8. Print the money for healthcare. There's a misconception that printing money always results in inflation. That's not true. Remember the COVID stimulus payments people received?

      https://blogs.cfainstitute.org/investor/2021/04/19/myth-busting-money-printing-must-create-inflation/

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    9. Israelis go through checkpoints too to get to their jobs. That's because there are so many Palestinian terrorists that security is needed everywhere. And when a suicide bomber gets through, Israelis die along with him. Is that freedom? Stupid Palestinian boys are still throwing rocks at Israeli soldiers and occasionally getting shot for it. Why can't Gazan parents teach their children to play different games?

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    10. Right, if only you were in charge of everything it sounds like we would all live in bliss.

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    11. Thanks for the link @2:29. It was my understanding that the US Federal Government did not print the money for COVID stimulus; they borrowed the money. That's why our National Debt increased so much.

      My fear is that some irresponsible future government WILL start printing money. If that happens, US inflation rate could go to levels not seen in this country -- levels that HAVE been seen in a number of other countries. There is no economic principle guaranteeing that any currency will hold its value.

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    12. The government printing/ borrowing too much money can cause inflation. When it does, the solution is to tax the excess money out of the economy.
      In situations where inflation is caused by too much money in the economy, raising taxes, reduces spending, which lowers inflation.

      BTW, any TDHers going to the Pentagon's bake sale this year?

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  4. “How many lawyers have walked into a meeting with Donald J. Trump praying hard that they might be able to bring the proud heart of Donald J. Trump around to their views”

    Trump is Achilles in Somerby’s mind?

    Except, Agamemnon and Achilles were both Greeks, and I don’t see any Republicans trying to move the proud heart of Donald Trump, including lawyers.

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  5. We each analyze the election in terms of what we know the best. Bob knows about ancient Greece, so he analyses the election in terms of the Iliad. I would analyze it in terms of statistics. But, a commode manufacturer might be more accurate by analyzing the election in terms of sh*t.

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    1. Politics is also about signalling.

      The Iraq war was a signal that the US ruling elite is willing to be as evil as terrorists to be feared.

      The Federal Reserve can signal mass layoffs using whatever statistics they want.

      Similarly, isn't Trump signalling he opposes the right of labor unions by meeting with a non union manufacturing plant in an election year and then lying about them?

      https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/sep/28/trump-michigan-fake-signs-auto-workers-union

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    2. IMO a candidate for President will seek the vote of all groups. Nothing should be deduced by a meeting with a particular group or individual.

      This problem is exacerbated by a biased media. E.g., the media downplays Al Sharpton's antisemitism. Sharpton encouraged a mob to lynch a young man named Yankel Rosenbaum just because Rosenbaum was Jewish. https://www.thejewishstar.com/stories/Recalling-Al-Sharptons-role-in-1991-Crown-Heights-riots,4242

      I cannot forgive Sharpton, but I don't blame Biden for meeting with Sharpton. I don't see this as meaning that Biden is antisemitic or that Biden approves of murdering Jews.

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    3. You're a real asshole, David. That is going back nearly 35 years and there is no claim that Sharpton "encouraged a mob to lynch ...Yankel Rosenbaum". You're just a fucking liar.

      Now, show us why Trump supports labor unions.

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    4. "When Donald Trump gave a speech in Michigan on Wednesday, seeking to capitalise on the United Auto Workers strike, at least two crowd members holding signs saying “union members for Trump” and “auto workers for Trump” turned out to be neither.

      The Detroit News reported: “One individual in the crowd who held a sign that said ‘union members for Trump’ acknowledged that she wasn’t a union member when approached by a reporter after the event.

      “Another person with a sign that read ‘auto workers for Trump’ said he wasn’t an auto worker when asked for an interview. Both people didn’t provide their names.”

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    5. The mind needs daily training to think clearly otherwise it just regurgitates tribal claims.

      What does Al sharpton have to do with your argument that you analyze the election using statistics?

      Brain fart!

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    6. "The mind needs daily training to think clearly otherwise it just regurgitates tribal claims."

      I like it. Flip side, digesting and regurgitating tribal claims constantly disengages the ability to assess information and substitutes a sort of tit-for-tat game of countering claims by offering rebuttals that don't even address the claim, but switch the subject. But what about this... your party does such and such.

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    7. None of that disparagement of people's thinking means that the claims of tribes are necessarily wrong or shouldn't be believed. A thinking person might come to that conclusion legitimately. So knee-jerk rejection of tribal claims isn't clear thinking either.

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    8. You're catching on. Each argument on its own merits is the only rule.

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    9. On Wednesday, United Auto Worker (UAW) president Shawn Fain explained that he expected most UAW members would not vote for President Biden in November.

      During an interview on Fox Business Network’s Your World with Neil Cavuto, Fain shared, “Let me be clear about this. A great majority of our members will not vote for President Biden. Yes, some will, but that’s the reality of this. The majority of our members are gonna vote for their paychecks, they’re gonna vote for an economy that works for them.”

      https://americansforfairtreatment.org/2024/01/26/uaw-endorses-biden-without-member-support/

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    10. This is always true when an organization makes an endorsement of a candidate. People vote as individuals. The speculation that a "great majority" will not vote for Biden is just as much guessing as any poll. I find it difficult to believe that any large number of union members will vote for Trump, but I doubt Fain knows how many will or won't, any more than anyone else does.

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    11. Fain obviously doesn't want to alienate the Trump supporters in his union, so he threw them a bone.

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    12. @3:55 PM
      Yes, of course. By saying that "a great majority of our members will not vote for President Biden", but will "vote for an economy that works for them" instead.

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    13. What union leader admits that workers are being paid well enough or living well enough. His job is portray his workers as economically disadvantaged so he can ask for more from their employers. But he does seem to be bothsidesing his audience while announcing a clear endorsement of Biden. Why would any union endorse Biden if the "great majority" of its members were not supportive of him? That makes no sense.

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    14. American for Fair Treatment - typical right wing name for an anti-union right wing organization that works overtime with funding from right wing billionaires for the exact opposite of what the title suggests.

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    15. Fain supposedly said that on Fox News. That seems relevant.

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    16. Vegas right now thinks there's a 70% chance Biden's will lose against Trump in 2024.

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    17. Las Vegas is Sin City.

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  6. Bob cannot draw any compelling illusions to Trump from classic literature because he has never considered Trump in any serious way. His response to this horrible period in history can only generously be called childish.

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    1. Didn't Bob call Trump Emperor Nero? That was pretty clever

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    2. Not illusions. Allusions.

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    3. Trump is more like Caligula than Nero.

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    4. Biden and Claudius are stutterers.

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    5. Claudius was a good emperor:

      "Despite his lack of experience, Claudius was an able and efficient administrator. He expanded the imperial bureaucracy to include freedmen, and helped restore the empire's finances after the excesses of Caligula's reign. He was also an ambitious builder, constructing new roads, aqueducts, and canals across the Empire."

      This is kind of like Biden in many respects.

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    6. I think he could be compared to both Caligula and Nero. Caligula's silliest moment was when he demanded to be deified while still living (their was a tradition at the time of deifing, or pronouncing as gods, emperors at the time of their death.)

      Caligula despised the senators and tried to embarrass them multiple times including wanting to nominate a horse into the senate and creating a bordello staffed by senator's wives.

      Sorry, once I get going on this it's hard to stop.

      Someone do Nero.

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    7. Anonymouse 2:28pm, the infrastructure thing is certainly apt.

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    8. It's a scary comparison because the cycle that represents alternating bad emperors, and good emperors that repair the damage and do their best to restore the republic was representative of the decline of that republic.

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    9. Anonymouse 2:35pm, fiddling around and Covid, most obvious punch line.

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    10. Yeah. Except it irks me because it was a lute. The historical transformation occured sometime after Shakespeare wrote:

      Plantagenet, I will; and like thee, Nero,
      Play on the lute, beholding the towns burn.

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    11. Claudius began the conquest of Britain.

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    12. And that greatly benefited the British. Romans weren't much for occupying the territories they conquered, once they left their improvements (aqueducts, sanitation, roads, math and record-keeping).

      Europe may be unified today because of the groundwork laid by the Romans.

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    13. Caligula was brutal and crazy, much like Trump.

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    14. The Roman Empire gave us Christianity and the Romance languages.

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  7. I am Bobby Blunderman.

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  8. We disagree with David. Let's not insult or ridicule him.

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    1. It's a terrible inconvenience to have to be polite, you must be very resentful at even the suggestion of it!

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    2. It's like a choose your own adventure. Looks like I died.

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    3. Anonymouse 2:36pm, David is cursed out almost every time he posts.

      Don’t fret about it. I’ll say something anonymices find off-putting and then we’ll get anonymouse odes to David’s fine character and intellect.

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    4. Cecelia, David comes here to provoke people by saying that same old right wing propaganda and disinformation, over and over, no matter how many times we refute it. He never listens or changes anything here. There is no reason to be polite to someone who does that. He isn't here to discuss anything but to spread lies, and that itself is uncivil.

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    5. Anonymouse 3:09pm, so you’re upset that you haven’t been able to change David’s political opinions, therefore •he’s being unreasonable and deserving of f-u’s?

      Sheesh.

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    6. Sheesh to that? In their first response (the choose your own adventure one) they gave themselves the leeway to be rude to half the country. Best not to tax them further, they are tired out from all the compromising!

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    7. Spreading propaganda and disinformation that has been documented to be incorrect is not the same as simply holding a different opinion. Facts determine what is true, not stubborness. David does not yield to facts and that makes him impossible to talk to, and that is what opens the door to calling him wrong and other name-calling, because ignoring him would let his propaganda and disinformation stand without challenge.

      It is a waste of time trying to educate David and sometimes the time invested in doing that is considerable -- all wasted. That is why he gets abused, because coming to a liberal blog and spreading disinformation that must be addressed is an imposition on other people's lives. Uncivil.

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    8. 3:20, no, David can have his "opinions". Nobody can stop him. We all have our opinions. Only your side likes to prevent us from voting and exercising our political franchise.

      David comes here to lie. He's your classic hit and run troll. He asks for it.

      Sharpton encouraged a mob to lynch a young man named Yankel Rosenbaum

      That is not a fucking political opinion, that is a damned lie.

      Biden's obvious acceptance of bribery

      That is not a fucking political opinion, that is a damned lie.

      It's about time you magats learn the difference.

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    9. Anonymouse 4:07pm, get real. if any Republican had organized protests against a black merchant and called him a black “interloper” in the process, and this merchant ended up being murdered, you’d be tar and feathering every political contrarian in country, let alone the rabble rouser who started it.

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    10. It's a damned lie, Cecelia, and DiC is a fucking liar.
      Sharpton wasn't even there at the time. I agree, Sharpton's rhetoric at the time was ugly, but this is what DiC posted today:

      Sharpton encouraged a mob to lynch a young man named Yankel Rosenbaum...

      That is not a fucking political opinion, that is a damned lie.

      Rosenbaum was killed the day before Sharpton even went to NY and the protests.

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    11. Have to agree with @5:39. Cecelia, you owe him and Sharpton an apology.

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    12. I do not owe Sharpton or the anonymouse an apology.

      Perhaps I can state that much without my comment being nuked.

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    13. Nuked? Can you be any smaller as a person?

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    14. You’ve never heard of a comment on a blogboard being nuked. Is “disappeared” better?

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    15. Only Somerby can do that.

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    16. And what? I’m not Somerby. I like it when you’re gone but I can’t make you leave.

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    17. Anonymouse 8:39pm, when did I imply or suggest anything otherwise?

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    18. Whoever nukes a comment should apologize to the commenter.

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  9. Somerby says that Troy is an apt metaphor because Trump is laying seige to the White House, while Democrats have laid siege to Trump via the justice system. Setting aside that prosecutors and Grand Juries do not represent the left and that Democrats have nothing to do with such prosecutions, what does siege mean?

    siege definition: "a military operation in which enemy forces surround a town or building, cutting off essential supplies, with the aim of compelling the surrender of those inside" An alternate definition involves police laying siege to a criminal who is holed up, but the method is the same, denying resources.

    Is Trump in any way cutting off essential resources needed by the White House? The only red tribe effort that resembles that definition is the refusal of the House to vote funding for military aid in Ukraine and Israel or humanitarian aid to Palestine. The House is strangling that aid in order to harm Biden, but also to advance Putin's goals in Ukraine, and that suggests that it is Putin who is laying siege to the White House, not Trump. But there is no other way in which Trump is starving Biden or the White House of essential supplies or resources.

    Looking at the supposed siege of Trump, it might be an apt metaphor except that neither the Democrats nor Biden are behind these prosecutions. Some come from red tribe DOJ special prosecutors, politically independent members of our justice system, not political entities. Trump's own commission of crimes and fraud have caused their actions. No one on the left forced Trump to rape
    E.Jean Carroll and the suggestion that Trump should not be prosecuted due to presidential immunity has nothing to do with left-wing political actions. Trump broke the law and he is not above the law, so he is being prosecuted as any other person would be (with a tad more consideration than most defendants or accused receive).

    Somerby obviously buys into the right wing theory that Trump is being politically targeted by these prosecutions, when he says there is a siege against him. No liberal that I know sides with the right on Trump's belief that he is being persecuted. When Trump's own actions have placed him in legal peril and prevents him from campaigning as vigorously as he says he would otherwise do, that is not any kind of siege by Democrats or Biden or the DNC or anyone specifically on the left. It is our government doing its job, as it would with regard to any individual who has done what Trump manifestly did (those documents were found at Mar a Lago, Trump did pay off Stormy, etc.).

    The worst part of Somerby's metaphor is that it paints Trump as a victim, just as Troy was a victim of Greek aggression. Biden is not a victim simply because Trump is running against him. He is not confined to his own Troy, not limited in his resources against Trump but better funded than the Republicans, not unarmed or doomed to defeat as Troy was. And Biden is not stupid enough to fall for a decoy horse, as Troy supposedly did. Denying Biden the role of vengeance-seeking aggressor is a way of emasculating Biden, when he is not only the incumbent but the presumptive leader in the upcoming election.

    This too must be how Somerby sees Biden, and it isn't the way the blue tribe sees this election. So, I think this is not a very good metaphor except that it reveals Somerby's biases.

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    1. You should just slow down a tad. He didn't write that Trump is laying siege to the White House. He wrote it was the red states. Then you wrote all those words based on your mis-reading...

      Yes I know, I'm the stupid one. There, there... it's okay.

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    2. No. I’m the stupid one!

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    3. @2:41, you are correct that Somerby limits this to red and blue tribes (like Greeks and Romans) and not the individuals who carry the action in the Iliad, the people with names and deeds. Don't kid yourself that Trump is not the Republican party, or that the Democrats are not united behind Biden. These are the names of the equivalent champions of those tribes in our times.

      I don't see how your complaint changes anything about my comment.

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    4. Somerby just likes to see himself as Homer.

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    5. You’re both stupid, if you think she wrote all those words.

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    6. She who? Who else would have written them? There are smarter people than YOU Cecelia, who do write lots of words and know the meanings of them.

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    7. "I don't see how your complaint changes anything about my comment."

      I didn't have any expectation that it would. Of course any time red states is mentioned you can just substitute Trump! Trump is red states! Oh vey.

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    8. Anonymouse 3:21pm, I don’t doubt that last statement in the slightest, but it’s irrelevant as to what is really going on with the endless and endlessly insipid posts anonymices write here.

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    9. @3:25 The only person standing up to Trump on the right is Nikki Haley. Trump is the Republican party to the point where he is appointing his daughter-in-law to the DNC and he can kill House legislation just by demanding it. It is a joke to pretend that the red tribe is not Trump, if that is what you are suggesting.

      Cecelia, as people have already pointed out to you, it is unrealistic to come to a supposedly liberal blog and complain because many of the comments are liberal.

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    10. Insipid? I find them interesting. Yours, not so much.

      Meanwhile, according to the blog post, Democrats and republicans are just like the Greeks and Trojans. Seems insipid to me.

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    11. Anonymouse3:35pm, of course you do. You’re likely posting the stuff.

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    12. Well, here's the problem with the metaphor for me. Somerby insists that both the red tribe and the blue tribe are under siege. How can you have two sides both be under siege. In a siege, one group is stationary and the other group surrounds it so that no food, water, ammunition or even people can go in or out. So both sides cannot be under siege and both sides cannot be laying siege. One must attack and the other defend, and not at the same time.

      People who don't know what words mean will be untroubled by Somerby's metaphor, but those who do have a vocabulary will be put off by this problem.

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    13. Anonymouse 3:32pm, I don’t think these long insipid comments are “liberal”. They’re artifical.

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    14. Anything but admit an error, it's amazing really. Glad I don't know anyone like this in real life.

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    15. You’re right, 3:54. David never admits an error.

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    16. @3:32 typo correction, Lara is being appointed to the RNC, not the DNC

      Cecelia -- you don't get to decide what liberals think because you are a conservative.

      insipid definition: "1. lacking in qualities that interest, stimulate, or challenge : dull, flat. insipid prose. 2. : lacking taste or savor : tasteless [bland not crude]"

      You may not be interested by what someone else says here, but that doesn't make it liberal or not liberal. It is unsurprising that you are uninterested in a discussion of rhetorical devices. If you were interested in language, you would know more words.

      Insipid is a poor word choice here because what you are actually criticizing is not the dullness of someone's comment but its political content.

      Occasionally it occurs to me that you may have such language difficulties because you are a non-native English speaker in an Eastern European troll farm. There is no way to know, but when a comment is routinely full of language mistakes, they are either non-native or undereducated, perhaps from a rural area or with a learning disability. You don't have to answer. Your comments speak for you -- they are what I imagine Lauren Boebert would have written, both in aggressive ridiculousness and ignorance.

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    17. Anonymouse 4:04pm, no, I actually am criticizing the dullness of the comment, the laboring of any discernible point, and the repetitiveness of it.

      I expect you to have liberal views. I expect that you won’t agree with blogger on everything he writes.

      However, your endless harangues about things such as song lyrics, the dissemination of right wing talking points in an essay about political talking points, the attempts to put boundaries on acceptable speech from the left, all these tedious things are useless, insipid, and meant to tarnish rather than clarify.

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    18. So, you aren’t willing to allow that different things annoy different people. If you wrote song lyrics you’d care when they were stolen or abused.

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    19. Anonymouse 5:55pm, no, at some point in becoming angry every time a line of poetry, a lyric, or literary prose was quoted, I’d start to think the problem likely resided in me.

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    20. When you quote you include an attribution and source. Without that, it is stealing, plagiarism, not quoting. You may think the way you do because you are not an artist, writer or creative person. That doesn’t mean others don’t care. So, the difference of opinion probably does reside in you.

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    21. Anonymouse 6:47pm, no, the “difference” is that you’re moving the charge of Bob misinterpreting an artist’s work, to not linking a reference to it (which he usually does do).

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    22. He has been better lately, but he usually does not give credit. That’s when and why I complain.

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  10. Completely agree. We should accord him the same amount of respect that his favorite presidential candidate affords his adversaries. That is, none. If we want to accord him equivalent treatment we will have to add lying about him to the name calling. Thanks for the suggestion.

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    1. The above was in response to the plea to Venice to David in Cal.

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  11. I am Timmy Slumblebum

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  12. Cloud: Trump is a rapist.
    Silver lining: Trump's complete and total contempt for Republican voters.

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