Our day for critiquing fiery language!

THURSDAY, MARCH 9, 2017

Erik Wemple and Ball Four:
Is this our day for fiery language? In this new post, the Washington Post's Erik Wemple endorses the use of the fiery term "lie" by big major fact-checkers.

His nugget passage appears below. Lori Robertson of FactCheck.org argues against the use of the term "lie."

In response, Wemple says fact-checkers should maybe use the term in certain cases. We were struck by the alacrity with which he wanted to go there:
WEMPLE (3/9/17): Asked to elaborate on FactCheck.org’s aversion to “lie,” Robertson cites the industry-standard explanation: “Was there intent to deceive?” That’s a question that’s tough to answer, and it’s required to prove the definition of “lie.” There’s another layer to the rationale, too: “Our official policy is the ‘intent’ argument, but … if we said somebody lies every other day, to me it sounds like name-calling,” says Robertson.

That’s not to say that Robertson hasn’t heard the cries for “lies.” “My question for people who want us to say this: Why? Why is that so important to you?” says Robertson. “I mean, is that valuable in some way for us to say somebody lied? Or is it more valuable for us to explain, ‘This was false and let us explain why. Let us give you some other information.’ I think that larger context is maybe more important than the label.”

How about this: Both are important. When the president states falsehoods that have been contradicted numerous times by well-distributed reporting—sometimes directly to him in interviews and the like—it’s fair to reach the conclusion that he has lied.
Is Wemple right? If a politician "states falsehoods that have been contradicted numerous times by well-distributed reporting," is it "fair to reach the conclusion that he has lied?"

Maybe! But before you used that thrilling term, wouldn't you want to ask the pol, or his staff, why he keeps making the claim in question? Wouldn't you want to tell your readers what the pol said in response?

Politicians are not required to agree with fact-checkers, even those as celebrated as Robertson or Wemple. We were struck by Wemple's thinking here:

In his head, he wanted to go to the supposition before he sought and transmitted all the relevant information. Even in these enlightened times, we humans tend to be like this.

We recall the famous statement by Gene Brabender in Jim Bouton's classic, Ball Four: "Where I come from we just talk a little while. After that we start to hit.”

19 comments:

  1. "Is Wemple right? If a politician "states falsehoods that have been contradicted numerous times by well-distributed reporting," is it "fair to reach the conclusion that he has lied?"

    Maybe! But before you used that thrilling term, wouldn't you want to ask the pol, or his staff, why he keeps making the claim in question? Wouldn't you want to tell your readers what the pol said in response?"

    Journalism 101 has been sacrificed to budget cuts. Sorry, America.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
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  2. So according to Bouton we should stop talking to Trump and start hitting? Well, OK by me.

    People are trying hard to hang onto the truth but Somerby thinks we need to worry about the meaning of the word "lie" instead. First things first where I come from.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Hello, I am Diaz Juan Antonio After being in relationship with Natasha for years, She broke up with me, I did everything possible to bring her back but all was in vain, I wanted her back so much because of the love I have for her, I begged her with everything, I made promises but she refused. I explained my problem to my friend and she suggested that I should rather contact a spell caster that could help me cast a love spell to bring Francesca back but I am the type that never believed in spell, I had no choice than to try it, I mailed the spell caster and i had no
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  4. Hello, I am Diaz Juan Antonio After being in relationship with Natasha for years, She broke up with me, I did everything possible to bring her back but all was in vain, I wanted her back so much because of the love I have for her, I begged her with everything, I made promises but she refused. I explained my problem to my friend and she suggested that I should rather contact a spell caster that could help me cast a love spell to bring Francesca back but I am the type that never believed in spell, I had no choice than to try it, I mailed the spell caster and i had no
    choice than to ordered a reunite love spell from Dr Alexzander [alexzanderhightemple@gmail.com]to help me get my lover back, after the spell was cast, the Results was
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  5. Hi, my husband and I have been together 17 years are married for 5, I recently had a one night stand with a man and I told my husband about it, he basically said ok we will get through this, a week later I found out that for months he has been talking to women on adult chat rooms, I’m upset about this and now we keep arguing over everything that’s happened. I suggested counselling but he won’t go, last night he said he can’t get passed this and wants a divorce, I love him very much and I want to stay with him, we have 2 children ages 7 and 5 and I know their hearts will break. We also own 2 businesses together and I don’t want things to get messy. Please give advice, I don’t know what to do anymore. basically and recently i found out about a love site on how to stop marriage divorce and get your husband back fix up your broken relationship, coz some many have testify about this love site created by Dr happy the spell caster which i also contacted about my marriage with my husband trying to get me divorce so i sent him an email regarding my problem with my husband so he gave me the best assurance that i will have my husband back, to love and to cherish me more forever i never believe in this coz it was my first time so i put all faith in him and god so the next day after the spell, my husband call and come back home with some surprise gift, and go down on his ness apology and feel so sorry about the past and how he treated me. my husband is madly in love with me again all grateful and thankful to Dr happy the indeed he is a genuine spellcaster.contact him via happylovespell2@gmail.com
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    ReplyDelete
  6. Minor League HitterMarch 10, 2017 at 12:22 AM

    Like Jim Bouton, Bob Somerby never figured out he no longer had his best stuff. Unlike Bouton, Bob could never make it to the big leagues in any field, or even get a book finished, much less published.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. My name is loveth anetor I live
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      husband and I have been
      living a very happy and lovely
      life. So as time went on, I
      began to notice this strange
      attitude that he was
      possessing. He was now going
      out with other girls, to the
      extent that he was no longer
      picking up my calls, and he
      was not even sleeping in my
      house anymore. I became
      confused and didn't know what
      to do anymore. So i
      became worried and stranded,
      that brought so many
      thoughts into my mind, because I
      have never experienced
      a thing like this before in my life.
      So I decided to visit a spell
      caster, to see if he can help
      me out. So immediately I went
      to the internet, where I
      saw an amazing testimony of a
      spell caster who brought
      someone's ex lover back,so I
      contacted him immediately
      and I explained to him all my
      problems and he told me
      that it will be very easy for him
      to solve, compare to the
      ones he has done before. And he
      also gave me some
      proof to be really sure of her
      work, and he assured me
      that my husband will come back
      to me immediately after
      he is through with the spell
      casting. And also he told me
      to put all my trust in him and I
      really obeyed him.
      So it was 8:00 am on the next
      morning, when I was about
      going to work, when i received
      my husband's call, and he
      told me that he was coming back
      home, and he apologized
      to me, and told me that he is
      very sorry for the pain that
      he has cost me. And after some
      hours later, he really came
      back home, and that was how we
      continued our marriage
      with lots of love and happiness,
      and our love was now
      stronger than how it were
      before.
      And these great man also told
      me that once my heart
      desire has been granted unto me
      that i should go and
      testify of his work right here on
      the internet. Right now I
      am the happiest woman on earth
      today as I am writing
      this testimony, and I want to
      really thank
      dr alexzander for
      bringing back my
      husband, and for bringing joy and
      love to my family.so you
      all there having dificulties or the
      other don,t worry every
      thing will be fine
      So my greatest advice for you
      out there who your husband
      or your wife is acting strange or
      behaving the same way
      like this, or you have any
      problem with your relationship or
      anything related to do with spell
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      and visit this great man anytime,
      and i assure you that
      she will be of help to you, and I
      am 100% sure that he
      will solve it out.once again
      contact him on these email
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      Delete
  7. Lori Robertson has a BA in advertising, her concerns seem to be related to issues of branding. When dealing with non stop lying Trump and his alternate reality voters, it is indeed the label that gives the context.

    In interviews Trump HAS been asked why he clings to false claims, his typical response is to double down on the falsehood and continue repeating it:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/01/26/trump-just-gave-a-remarkable-new-interview-heres-a-tally-of-all-his-lies/?utm_term=.af45df8f0b46

    For the Trump voters that Somerby wants us to win over, there is no value in explaining what Trump says is false, they simply do not believe it.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/01/02/yes-donald-trump-lies-a-lot-and-news-organizations-should-say-so/?utm_term=.b80f05fa90d5

    Here Kirsten Soltis Anderson (a republican operative with more integrity than sleazy clown Kayleigh McEnany) points out that Trump voters trust Trump over the media (skip ahead to the three minute mark if watching Kayleigh make unintelligent and disingenuous arguments makes you uncomfortable):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhSG8dxOZIE

    For reference, here is Kayleigh being sleazy as usual:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34xRKd9oIIc

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. According to Scott Adams (creator of the cartoon Dilbert), Trump's exaggeration or lying is a clever strategy that is effectively influencing or determining public dialogue. Some commenters here might not want to think about Trump outsmarting their side. But, I recommend this article for an interesting POV.
      http://blog.dilbert.com/post/158192839741/income-inequality

      Delete
    2. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    3. Outsmarting? Only Conservatives and the MSM could be outsmarted by the fool.

      Delete
  8. Conservatives don't care abut lying or corruption. When they yelled "Hillary is a crook", they meant "Hillary won't shit on minorities enough to my liking."

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes, I think we can safely say that conservatives have forever and ever forfeited the moral authority to ever ever ever complain about corruption and lying.

      They voted for a man whose first act after the election was to settle for $25 million his Trump U fraud suit. Previously, before the election he was fined by the IRS for illegally using funds from his fraudulent foundation to bribe the FL AG into not joining the Trump U fraud and racketeering suit.

      Yes, I think we can safely say that lying, fraud and corruption by public officials is off the table now.

      Delete
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    ReplyDelete
  10. My name is loveth anetor I live
    in California
    THE GREAT dr alexzanderhightemple BROUGHT
    MY HUSBAND BACK TO ME IN
    JUST A ONE DAY.
    i got married 4months ago. My
    husband and I have been
    living a very happy and lovely
    life. So as time went on, I
    began to notice this strange
    attitude that he was
    possessing. He was now going
    out with other girls, to the
    extent that he was no longer
    picking up my calls, and he
    was not even sleeping in my
    house anymore. I became
    confused and didn't know what
    to do anymore. So i
    became worried and stranded,
    that brought so many
    thoughts into my mind, because I
    have never experienced
    a thing like this before in my life.
    So I decided to visit a spell
    caster, to see if he can help
    me out. So immediately I went
    to the internet, where I
    saw an amazing testimony of a
    spell caster who brought
    someone's ex lover back,so I
    contacted him immediately
    and I explained to him all my
    problems and he told me
    that it will be very easy for him
    to solve, compare to the
    ones he has done before. And he
    also gave me some
    proof to be really sure of her
    work, and he assured me
    that my husband will come back
    to me immediately after
    he is through with the spell
    casting. And also he told me
    to put all my trust in him and I
    really obeyed him.
    So it was 8:00 am on the next
    morning, when I was about
    going to work, when i received
    my husband's call, and he
    told me that he was coming back
    home, and he apologized
    to me, and told me that he is
    very sorry for the pain that
    he has cost me. And after some
    hours later, he really came
    back home, and that was how we
    continued our marriage
    with lots of love and happiness,
    and our love was now
    stronger than how it were
    before.
    And these great man also told
    me that once my heart
    desire has been granted unto me
    that i should go and
    testify of his work right here on
    the internet. Right now I
    am the happiest woman on earth
    today as I am writing
    this testimony, and I want to
    really thank
    dr alexzander for
    bringing back my
    husband, and for bringing joy and
    love to my family.so you
    all there having dificulties or the
    other don,t worry every
    thing will be fine
    So my greatest advice for you
    out there who your husband
    or your wife is acting strange or
    behaving the same way
    like this, or you have any
    problem with your relationship or
    anything related to do with spell
    casting, is for you to go
    and visit this great man anytime,
    and i assure you that
    she will be of help to you, and I
    am 100% sure that he
    will solve it out.once again
    contact him on these email
    now..and your problem we be all over because I really trust him as the best spell caster in the world.alexzanderhightemple@gmail.com or http://alexzanderhightemple-com.webs.com

    ReplyDelete
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    ReplyDelete
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