Democrats think the darnedest things!

SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 9, 2019

Four items from that Times survey:
What the heck do Trump voters think? When the occasional journalist decides to ask, we liberals tend to get mad. We tend to tell these journalists to stop.

As part of a recent survey in the six states Trump won by the narrowest margins, the New York Times took a different approach. The Times asked Democratic voters in those states to state their view about several topics.

We thought the answers those Dem voters gave were very much worth considering.

In this report from yesterday's Times, Nate Cohn reports what those Democratic voters said they think about a series of topics. He also reported the views of registered voters who lean Democratic but didn't vote in 2016. By staying home in 2016, these Dem-leaners helped Trump win.

What do Democratic voters in those swing states think? We'll consider four different topics:

So-called political correctness: In what struck us as a startling rate of response, 61 percent of Democratic voters said they agree with this statement: "Political correctness has gone too far."

Additionally, 68 percent of Democratic leaners who didn't vote stated the same view.

What do these people have in mind when they state this view? We can't answer that question. But claims about "political correctness" largely originated, decades ago, as a fusillade from the right.

When 61 percent of Democrats who voted for Clinton express that view about "political correctness," we can only imagine how many votes may have been lost among others who hold such views.

Media condescension: According to Cohn, 28 percent of Democratic voters said they think "the media looks down on people like them." A walloping 39 percent of Dem-leaners who didn't vote stated the same view.

We don't know what these people would say if they were asked to explain this view. For ourselves, we wouldn't be inclined to respond to such a broad question.

Racial discrimination: Citizens, get ready to howl! According to Cohn, 24 percent of Democrats who voted for Clinton in these states believe that "discrimination against whites has become as big a problem as discrimination against blacks." 33 percent of Dem-leaning non-voters stated the same view.

We don't know what these people would say if asked to explain this view. But over here in our liberal tribe, we like to associate this view with the snarling racists widely found in the other tribe. For whatever reason, a large contingent of people who voted for Clinton say that they hold the same view.

Likable hopefuls: The fourth question is one of those survey questions which seem to have been designed to separate us by tribe. On its face, the question is worded in such a convoluted way that you'd think it would mainly serve to separate thoughtful people like Us from horrible people like Them.

In this case, that didn't quite happen. According to Cohn, 25 percent of Democrats who voted for Clinton said they agree with this statement: "Sometimes, it feels like most women who run for President just aren't that likable." 37 percent of Democratic non-voters agreed.

The statement these people were asked to assess includes a remarkable string of qualifiers. In theory, though, well-trained people will know that they shouldn't agree with the statement. The Others would blunder ahead.

In this case, one-fourth of Democrats who voted for Clinton said they agreed with the statement. Cohn doesn't tell us how many Republican voters agreed with the statement, and no one was asked to respond to a similar question about candidates who are men.

So how about it? What do we the Democrats think?

In our view, the size of the response about "political correctness" is extremely striking. But all these matters should be examined further, unless our progressive thought leaders just don't care what our "Joe and Jane Lunchbuckets" think.

By the way, how many black and female Democrats agreed with the statements about discrimination and likability? It's our impression that pollsters generally don't publish such data.

We Democrats think the darnedest things. But so do we people in general!

Concerning some basic confusion: As we read Cohn's report, we found its basic lack of clarity maddening. We're especially thinking of the way he jumbled two separate questions together:

How would Candidate Clinton have fared with a larger Democratic turnout? Versus, How would Candidate Clinton have fared with a larger overall turnout?

Many people have said that Clinton failed to inspire a large turnout among Democratic constituencies. It seemed to us that Cohn created a lot of confusion when he seemed to run those two questions together.

We struggled to make out what he was saying. Valuable minutes ticked away as we tried to figure things out!

93 comments:

  1. Don't criticize your own party. Say nice things about it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That's why TDH doesn't criticize the party of Trumptards.

      Delete
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  2. As you know, dear Bob -- and you mentioned it yourself a few times in the past -- no one, not a single human being likes your zombie cult for what it is.

    The only reason they may vote for your cult is that you promise them free money. Alas, Demigod Barry greatly disappointed them. Free money to the banksters, eviction notices to the rest. That's probably the main reason why your zombie cult lost in 2016.

    Your zombie cult's strategy we're observing today is just more of the same: 'vote for me and get all these good things for free!'

    Fine. A year from now, we'll see how successful it was.

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    Replies
    1. Still a smelly little Nazi, and Bon Somerby's alter ego. Bob is Mao, Mao is Bob.

      Delete
  3. "When 61 percent of Democrats who voted for Clinton express that view about "political correctness," we can only imagine how many votes may have been lost among others who hold such views."

    Because the whole term political correctness started as a "fusillade from the right" why would any Democrat be in favor of it? Because this question can measure (1) people who think the whole concept is an attack from the right on civility toward those who are diverse, or (2) people who think the demand for political correctness aka civility toward diversity has gone too far, we cannot know what people were thinking who answered this question and that renders the question meaningless.

    Nevertheless, Somerby thinks he knows what it means and he uses it to chastise Democrats. It may be that NO votes were lost because of dislike of political correctness, among those who recognize it as a conservative term used to disparage those who value civility toward diverse people.

    Hillary Clinton won the popular vote by 3.5 million. She lost in three supposedly blue states where there was demonstrable hacking of voting machines and Republican ratfucking. Instead of examining how that happened, Somerby insists on blaming Democratic attitudes (and Hillary) for a result that was inconsistent with Democratic reactions in the rest of the nation. That makes no sense at all.

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  4. "According to Cohn, 28 percent of Democratic voters said they think "the media looks down on people like them." A walloping 39 percent of Dem-leaners who didn't vote stated the same view."

    News flash -- everyone looks down on people who didn't vote when someone like Trump was running.

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  5. If Somerby were an astute political analyst, he would have compared the answers given above to states that went strongly for Clinton, then he would have compared the questions to the social media campaign that was run on those specific states to (1) discourage Democratic turnout, (2) portray Hillary as unlikeable, (3) generate discontent among minority groups about Democrats and the democratic system, (4) promote 3rd party voting on the left. These responses are highly likely to reflect the propaganda and advertising efforts of the Russians and Republicans in those specific states, but such a comparison is needed to demonstrate that.

    Somerby instead wants to portray Democrats as having a large conservative (e.g., racist, sexist) contingent, especially among those who didn't vote in 2016. The statements of these voters (and non-voters!) do not reflect the stated values of the party, as expressed in its platform and in the speeches of its candidates. It may be that some people who are not Democrats voted for Hillary because they disliked Trump (seems unlikely given their answers), or they voted Democrat because their families have always been Democrats, or they voted based on some specific issue (single issue voters) and not because of broader principles or sympathy. But none of that dictates that the Democratic party must abandon its ideals or platform planks or change its image, or whatever Somerby has in mind (he never really says).

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  6. I find the phrase "Joe and Jane Lunchbuckets" to be offensive. I don't hear any Democrats referring to working class people that way. If this is mocking the way Democrats supposedly characterize them, it is defamatory. But it isn't surprising to see Somerby portraying liberals as snobby. The left is the party of working people and it is the only party that promotes the interests of workers as opposed to bosses.

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    1. I was amused by TDH's admission that he enjoys illogical and/or disingenuous text because it confirms his view of human nature.

      Is that balefulness in the sense of cutting off your nose to spite your face" or is it more akin to masochism?

      That said, I could do with him being wrong more often than he is.

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    2. Somerby enjoys thinking that these books, which he does not understand, are written by foolish professors. That strokes his ego in the face of his early academic disappointments. We have only his word that any of what he reads is "illogical" and most people (including those who ought to know) disagree with him about that.

      Mockery is easy. Understanding complex things takes work that Somerby is unwilling to invest.

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    3. His contention is with books and articles that portray themselves as being “Einstein For Dummies”.

      In that regard, TDH is correct in saying that the Emperor (and royal reviewers) isn't wearing any clothes.

      You can call it mockery that this is illustrated by scratching his head and quoting text that generally makes little sense to Joe Blow, but it’s very humorous and effectively to the point.

      The point being that these books bill themselves as being for people who don’t want to invest in the background work it takes to handle these “complex things”.

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    4. No, Cecelia. Just yesterday Somerby said Lord Russell held “eternally comical views” concerning his paradox. He has never once tried to present Russell’s paradox, nor to refute in any way. He just declares it comical. He certainly fails to understand its importance for the field of set theory.

      He went to great lengths to emphasize how crazy Gödel was, in order to discredit his work, again without once attempting to examine it.

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    5. 2:21pm, Lord Russell was mentioned in the context of another “made simple” author but his formulation is the stuff of comedy in same way that a board full of the complex mathematics of chemistry might bring a laugh if juxtaposed next to the text “The Everyday Process of Digestion”.

      At least with The Everyday Process of Digestion, we might get Little drawings of the Krebs Cycle in terms of little molecule Vikings advancing on the fair maidens of egg whites, or some other made- simple device for the simple (me).

      I think Somerby is right in saying that these efforts can be a front for suggesting that the emperor really is dressed in the most beautiful attire when, whether by the abstrusity of the language or of the theoretical nature of the idea, the sovereign is naked.

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    6. 12:27 PM, who should get out more but, for sure, only after the sun goes down, writes:

      I find the phrase "Joe and Jane Lunchbuckets" to be offensive. I don't hear any Democrats referring to working class people that way.

      Wikipedia says LINK:

      [QUOTE] In United States politics, the term lunch pail Democrat, lunchbox Democrat, or lunchbucket Democrat refers to members of the Democratic Party of a "blue collar" or working-class background, as well as politicians who share or attempt to leverage this background through populist appeals. Laurence Collins of The Boston Globe summarized the term as "a label that connotes an absence of lofty philosophical concerns in favor of a concern for people's more basic needs".

      The term
      lunchpail is also used more broadly as a metaphor for the working class, and in addition to Democrat is paired with other terms, such as lunch pail liberal or lunch pail socialism. [END QUOTE]

      Ho hum. Or was 12:27 PM offended by Somerby's choice of "Joe and Jane" instead of, say, "Ricardo and Latesha" as his given names for the "Lunchbuckets."?

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    7. So, you're saying that it comes from the media (Laurence Collins of the Boston Globe) applied to Democrats who care about working people. That doesn't excuse it.

      Similar terms include Joe Sixpack, Joe the Plumber etc. These are demeaning and yes, it is overly familiar and condescending to use a first name to describe a voting bloc, no matter what name you use. This language implies that the concern is not real and that the people are "less than" Rodney rich boy or Sammy the Surfer or whatever would be an equivalent from a different demographic. Your use of Ricardo and Latesha is noted.

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    8. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    9. There's nothing necessarily mocking about those terms 10:01 AM, though people like you may think so because of the contempt you all have for the working class, a contempt you wear on your sleeves thinking none of us unenlightened dullards are clever enough to look there to see it.

      Sure, you may have to work for a living but in no other way are you like "them," are you? That's why you're so opposed to the idea of worker solidarity and so in favor of advancing the politics of identity.

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    10. Worker solidarity and so-called identity politics (another right wing meme) are not mutually exclusive. Unions have dealt with racial issues since the 1960s and women's issues since the 70s. It is just the hard core Marxist types who think these are separate because they are mired in economic theory and not grounded in real life.

      When you start talking about respect for workers I find myself wondering how much you tip your server.

      You are creating a strawman of me as commenter in order to make ad hominem attacks. I knew there was a reason why I stopped responding to you. Bye bye.

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    11. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    12. Well then 6:01 PM au revoir, until the next time you post a "Hey everybody, look at how woke I am" comment here. At the rate you put those out, I would guess the next one will be up in about fifteen hours.

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    13. I'm with CMike. Up with the working class. Fuck you to the white working class.

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    14. And there you have it. 3:08 PM is as much of a race bigot as those whom he* wants you to think he opposes. 3:08 PM's comment is a "look at how searingly woke I am" performance. The Democratic Party has to distance itself from these moral (and political) failures.

      *I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that "he" is the correct pronoun for 3:08 PM and I don't eat doughnuts.

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    15. CMike,
      Playing identity politics and calling everyone a bigot is how we got Trump in the first place.

      Delete
  7. Hillary Clinton had very strong support among black voters prior to running in the primary against Obama. Obama's supporters made voting for Obama a matter of racial unity. Some of Hillary's black supporters stayed with her, but most shifted to Obama and then had difficulty going back to her in 2016 due to the divisiveness of the 2008 primary campaign, which did a lot of damage to Clinton, followed with a one-two-punch from Bernie. Russian propaganda capitalized on that, as did efforts to suppress minority voting coming from the right. I've never heard Somerby discuss voter suppression.

    Portraying Hillary as unlikeable started in 2008. Then it was continued by the Bernie Bros who portrayed her as a captive of corporations and a crook (repeating right-wing falsehoods). But I've never heard Somerby criticize Bernie's campaign tactics in 2016 either. Instead, he joined in, calling Hillary a flawed candidate. How are voters supposed to consider female candidates likeable when there are campaigns from the left intended to disparage them? Now it is starting against Warren, and Somerby is at it again.

    I see today's column as concern trolling. If Somerby cared about these attitudes among Democrat-leaning voters, he wouldn't engage in behavior that contributes to it. He wouldn't present a steady barrage of criticism of liberals, day in and day out, undermining our party with criticisms arising on the right. Never addressing their veracity but endlessly repeating them, along with a steady litany about how stupid liberals are and how doomed we are.

    Can anyone still doubt that Somerby is a Republican asset?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Portraying Hillary as unlikeable started in 2008.

      Portraying Hillary as unlikeable started during her husband’s first term. As governor of Arkansas. (He was elected in 1978.) Why is it you can’t get the simplest facts straight?

      I've never heard Somerby discuss voter suppression.

      That’s because 1) you never look for facts to back up your claims and 2) you simply refuse to understand that this isn’t a blog about issues but about our national conversation about issues. For example, it took me a matter of a minute to find a TDH blog entry (9/17/12) that discusses voter suppression. But naturally the focus is on how a newspaper (the NYT, also naturally) covered the issue. In that entry TDH quotes the Times’ public editor quoting the national editor thusly:

      “There’s a lot of reasonable disagreement on both sides,” he said. One side says there’s not significant voter fraud; the other side says there’s not significant voter suppression.

      “It’s not our job to litigate it in the paper,” Mr. Sifton said. “We need to state what each side says.”


      TDH commented

      Of course the Times should report what “each side” has said. The claim is that the Times should also include relevant facts about the validity of those claims.

      But you just don’t get it. You keep expecting TDH to do investigative journalism on topics dear to your heart, topics like voter suppression. You’re like someone who shouts “King me!” during a chess game. You don’t understand the rules of the game and aren’t interested in finding out about them.

      But I've never heard Somerby criticize Bernie's campaign tactics in 2016 either.

      Again less than a minute to find 4/18/16, when TDH discusses the press dubbing someone (in this case Sanders) as the “authentic” candidate and then dinging Sanders for repeating an untrue claim.

      I see today's column as concern trolling.

      Sure, but you keep your eyes firmly closed.

      Can anyone still doubt that Somerby is a Republican asset?

      Sure, anyone who doesn’t buy your tribal bullshit. What you really mean is “Can anyone doubt that someone who criticizes my friend must be my enemy."

      Pathetic.

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    2. 'Can anyone still doubt that Somerby is a Republican asset?'

      I don't think he's a Republican asset, so much as Republican asset wanna-be. In short, he wants to be a useful idiot for Trump, but because his audience is small, he is more like a 'useless idiot'.

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    3. The Republican plant 12:39 PM tries to sow divisiveness here and damage Bernie Sanders' prospects in the general election as he is the near certain to be Democratic nominee in 2020. 12:39 PM gives away the game with this slip:

      If Somerby cared about these attitudes among Democrat-leaning voters, he wouldn't engage in behavior that contributes to it....

      Can anyone still doubt that Somerby is a Republican asset?


      "Democrat-leaning"? That's Joe McCarthy/Bob Dole/Rush Limbaugh/Donald Trump language. The term any real Democrat would use is "Democratic-leaning."

      May you have the same bad luck reprogramming your next infiltrator, Republicans. 12:39 PM "don't come around here no more."

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    4. deadrat - why do you insist on trying to outyell the typhoons? Ie. can't you see you're debating a crazy person?

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    5. CMike, the phrase Democrat-leaning comes from Somerby himself:

      "Additionally, 68 percent of Democratic leaners who didn't vote stated the same view."

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    6. Oh My God. 9:50 AM, you're actually one of those Rush babies, born and bred in a lingo that you don't even know is intended to be disrespectful. No, "democrat-leaning" does not come from Somerby. He's a real Democrat. "Democrat-leaning" comes from your keyboard.

      Here's what came from Somerby in this post:

      [QUOTING] Democrats think the darnedest things!
      The Times asked Democratic voters in those states...
      ...Nate Cohn reports what those Democratic voters said...
      He also reported the views of registered voters who lean Democratic...
      What do Democratic voters in those swing states think?
      In what struck us as a startling rate of response, 61 percent of Democratic voters said...
      Additionally, 68 percent of Democratic leaners who didn't vote...
      When 61 percent of Democrats who voted for Clinton express that view...
      According to Cohn, 24 percent of Democrats who voted for Clinton...
      According to Cohn, 25 percent of Democrats who voted for Clinton said...
      37 percent of Democratic non-voters agreed.
      In this case, one-fourth of Democrats who voted for Clinton...
      What do we the Democrats think?
      ...how many black and female Democrats agreed with the statements about...
      We Democrats think the darnedest things.
      How would Candidate Clinton have fared with a larger Democratic turnout?
      Many people have said that Clinton failed to inspire a large turnout among Democratic constituencies...
      [END QUOTES]

      The Republicans really did send you out without your knowing it's actually the Democratic Party, not the "Democrat Party." You phonies are easy to spot.

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    7. Why didn't you say that you are objecting to the "Democrat" part of my comment and not the "leaning" part? When you quote at people instead of talking to them, it makes it hard for others to get your point.

      I am a liberal Democrat and have never voted for a Republican in my life. I don't see the big deal in the Democrat vs Democratic distinction and I don't listen to Rush, so it hasn't been on my horizon. There are better ways to identify someone's political leanings.

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    8. Leftists like Cmike are hypersensitive and weak in the loins. Their extreme lack of and insatiable need for power leads them to try to control other people's language. It's a lack of toughness and imagination that's born out of their obsession with collectivism and lack of power.

      And like, whaddya going to do, amiright?

      Delete
    9. "I am a liberal Democrat and have never voted for a Republican in my life."

      No, you're a neoliberal Hillbot, a Democrat in name only.

      Delete
    10. CMike thinks there were no identity politics in the union movement? What about the Irish?

      Delete
    11. As long as we're blathering, what about Mother Jones, herself, having been an advocate labor solidarity among whites, blacks, and Latinos in the U.S. but having stood against the inclusion of Asian immigrants in the movement?

      Delete
  8. What about Republicans? How do they feel about political correctness? I haven't seen a study, but anecdotally, every time I point out what Republicans actually are, I'm told it hurts their feelings, so I shouldn't do it.

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  9. Are we finally getting rid of political correctness?
    Awesome.
    So ready for more people to say "God is a figment of dimwitted imaginations", anytime that silly superstition is brought up in public.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes, here’s your chance to truly walk on the wild side.

      Insult religions. Tell off Republicans. Cast aspersions on white folks.

      It’ll be like the Old West. Knock yourself out, bro.

      Delete
    2. Cecelia,
      Good point about how we should have been doing these things for a century or two by now.

      Delete
  10. 'When the occasional journalist decides to ask, we liberals tend to get mad.'

    Your periodic public service announcement that when Somerby says 'we liberals', he really means 'we Trumptards'.

    ReplyDelete
  11. One thing conservatives like about Trump is that he actively opposes political correctness. Based on that survey, this attribute may help Trump with independent voters and even with some Democrats.

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    Replies
    1. It'll lose him the Republican vote. Republicans love political correctness. Don't believe me? You try telling them the truth about who they actually are.

      Delete
  12. Glad Somerby is here to decide which opinions liberals are allowed to have and which they are not.

    "Some people disagree with some liberals" is not the earth-shattering insight he seems to think it is.

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  13. Somerby says:
    “25 percent of Democrats who voted for Clinton said they agree with this statement: "Sometimes, it feels like most women who run for President just aren't that likable." 37 percent of Democratic non-voters agreed.”

    That isn’t precisely what the survey reported. The survey measured registered voters in six battleground states who did not vote in 2016 or 2018 who favor Democrats, versus Democrats who did vote.

    It does not say the Democrats who voted were Clinton voters. They might have been. But they may have sat out 2016, but voted in 2018, or they may have voted in 2016, but not for Clinton.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Elizabeth Dole, Mary Ann Williamson, and Tulsi Gabbard are all likable.

      So was Gracie Allen.

      Condoleezza Rice and Geraldine Ferraro would be/have been likable candidates.

      Delete
    2. Good to know your personal opinion, as irrelevant as it might be. My point was that Somerby misstates the poll when he says “25 percent of Democrats who voted for Clinton said...” He has added the “for Clinton”, which is not what the survey says.

      Delete
    3. Tulsi Gabbard is not likeable. Neither is Dole. I think you are letting your politics color your impressions of these women.

      Delete
    4. Does anyone else find it interesting that a conservative puts Tulsi Gabbard among the other Republican women on her list?

      Delete
    5. Gracie Allen wasn't a politician. She was an entertainer.

      Is Cecelia seriously arguing that some women are likeable?

      Delete
    6. Anon3:18pm, what was Geraldine Ferraro? A Naderite?

      Anon3:20pm, I recently read that George Burns and Gracie Allen had a running joke about her running for president in 1940. The "Surprise Party" ticket.

      Most people are likable, Sally Field excluded.

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  14. "How would Candidate Clinton have fared with a larger Democratic turnout? Versus, How would Candidate Clinton have fared with a larger overall turnout?"

    Clinton won by over 3.5 million votes. Doesn't that answer the question? Somerby doesn't ask: How would Clinton have fared without voter suppression in key electoral college states? How would Clinton have fared without black and progressive Bernie voters staying home?

    This is more of the pretense that the last presidential election was valid. It wasn't and Trump's election was far from legitimate.

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  15. Nate Cohn is very young (Whitman College, 2010).

    He uses words, punctuation, and sentences. What it all adds up to is a giant shrug of the shoulders.

    There are statements that resemble facts, some which resemble inferences from facts, but perhaps none more telling than “The results do not offer particularly clear guidance here.”

    He has essentially just restated the results of the Times poll from the other day using words instead of charts.

    To take one set of facts that don’t add up, here is Cohn, discussing nonvoters: “nonvoters “are disproportionately young, nonwhite and low-income, demographics that favor the” Democrats.

    But then, a couple of paragraphs later, he says:

    “the demographics of nonvoters no longer work so clearly in their [Democrats] favor.”

    Well, which is it, Nate?

    At any rate, the article is more or less a restatement of the Times poll that came out recently, using words rather than charts.

    Somerby is more interested in the “political correctness” question than anything else. Aside from the fact that there is no such thing as “political correctness”, its importance may lie in the fact that the fiction has been successfully implanted in the heads of voters by Republican propaganda. And apparently, if it has any relation to the current campaign, there is no Democratic candidate who fares much better than any other, with Biden, Sanders, and Warren polling all about the same against Trump. What this says about political correctness and whether it has any bearing on the poll numbers is unclear, but none of the top candidates, including centrist Biden, has any advantage in this department.

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  16. Fun fact: one of the six battleground states from the recent Times poll was Arizona.

    And, here’s what Cohn says about Arizona:

    “Democrats enjoyed a far larger edge among nonvoters in our poll of Arizona, where 33 percent of registered nonvoters were Hispanic, than elsewhere in the battlegrounds.”

    This may have implications for Texas:

    “It may add further intrigue to speculation about Democratic prospects in Texas, where nonvoters are even more diverse than they are in Arizona.”

    Intriguing! One paragraph, the Dems are maybe in trouble, the next, maybe some hope. It’s a real roller-coaster of a story!

    ReplyDelete
  17. Somerby's whole aim in life is to waste our time.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You know those people who joke around and ask you to pull their finger?

      Evidently, you’re the person who always does.

      Delete
    2. @Cecelia:

      Since your comment is grammatically ambiguous, it isn’t clear whether you mean that Randall is one of the ones who always joke around and ask you to pull their finger, or one of the ones who always tries to pull the joker’s finger. Let’s just say that he is the former, and Randall got you to pull his finger, thereby wasting your time, thus illustrating his point.

      Delete
    3. 11:57am, I don’t think that Randall is a waste of time, but that you do is your prerogative.

      Delete
    4. Life is one big waste of time (no matter what you do) and then you die.

      Delete
    5. Anon 3:16pm, don’t give in to that sentiment. I pray you feel better soon.

      Delete
  18. deadrat sez:

    “Can anyone still doubt that Somerby is a Republican asset?

    Sure, anyone who doesn’t buy your tribal bullshit. What you really mean is “Can anyone doubt that someone who criticizes my friend must be my enemy."

    Pathetic.”

    What’s pathetic is a 70+ year old blogger that nobody reads phoning it in day by day by passing along, without critical analysis, mainstream media articles that support the view that “Dems are in trouble” or “Dems are virtue-signaling know-it-alls” who are “lazy, dumb, and exude a moral squalor”, who really ought not nominate “militant progressives” like Warren, but more centrist candidates like Biden instead. And somehow, that doesn’t make him an asset to Republicans.

    And the retort from Somerby defenders to the charge that Somerby is a Republican asset? “Is not!!!”

    What’s even more pathetic is the amount of time wasted by commenters, anonymous and non-anonymous (including myself), shouting at each other on a pointless blog trying to score points.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. deadrat,
      Don't forget to omit that Somerby criticizes my friend from the Right, AND he uses discredited,n Right-wing memes to do so. It makes you look less stupid.

      Delete
    2. Social psychology includes the subfield of "persuasion" which studies how people form attitudes and how they change each others' minds. It includes advertising and PR and political opinion.

      One tenet of persuasion is that people are more likely to believe someone who they consider to be like themselves, one of their own group (whatever that is) than someone they consider a member of a different group. That means that when Somerby calls himself a liberal and expresses some criticism of a liberal candidate, he is more likely to be believed by other liberals than if he called himself an Independent or a Conservative and expressed those same criticisms.

      So, one reason I comment here as Anonymous is to counteract the belief that Somerby is a liberal and to perhaps raise some skepticism among other liberals about the things he says here. Yes, I know that many of the other commenters are not liberal, but there are lurkers who may consider themselves liberal and visit here because they remember that Somerby was a stalwart on the blogrolls of numerous liberal blogs a decade or so back. So, he has liberal credentials and that may fool casual readers. That's why I try to point out that Somerby stopped being a liberal and is not now expressing any liberal viewpoints, but he is definitely criticizing liberals using Republican talking points and conservative memes.

      Further, Somerby is lying about his politics whenever he says "we liberals" in order to influence others. That makes him part of the disinformation campaign being waged on the internet.

      People come to this blog because Somerby used to discuss education issues. Some who comment here are educators. It is still possible to have interesting discussions in comments, even when Somerby is not saying anything useful.

      So, those of us who comment are not "trying to score points." First, there are no points. Second, there is no special pleasure in reading deadrat or any of the other trolls, who tend to interfere with discussion, which is what trolls do.

      Personally, I think the biggest and most pathetic waste of time is jigsaw puzzles, but restoring classic cars comes a close second. I would bet that the people who read this blog spend a lot of their time helping children in some way and don't need to make their time-wasting meaningful.

      Delete
    3. Anonymous, enjoyed your comment @2:55P. I have a couple of questions.

      So, one reason I comment here as Anonymous is to counteract the belief that Somerby is a liberal and to perhaps raise some skepticism among other liberals about the things he says here.

      Do you comment here to counteract belief and raise skepticism or do you comment here as Anonymous to do so? You label me a troll who interferes with discussion, but there’s little more confusing in a discussion than a succession of commenters who use the same name. If you’re so concerned about coherent, corrective exchanges of views, why not have the courtesy to use a nym?

      Isn’t cogent counter-argument the best way to raise skepticism about TDH’s views? Why don’t you try that route instead of trying to re-label the blogger? After all, it’s not as if TDH presents unassailable claims. I realize that it’s easier to shout “Heretic!” than it is to look things up, but still.

      Somerby was a stalwart on the blogrolls of numerous liberal blogs a decade or so back. So, he has liberal credentials and that may fool casual readers.

      More like two decades or so back. Do you find it likely that “casual readers” are aware of TDH’s history? Do you find it likely that there are many such casual readers at all?

      He [TDH] is definitely criticizing liberals using Republican talking points and conservative memes.

      Which ones? That immigrants are invading killers? That tax cuts for the wealthy are good for everyone? That isolationism will bring back industry? That the bar to voting should be as high as possible? That Jesus wrote the Constitution?

      Remember that Republican talking points are wrong because they fail to comport with democratic principles and often with reality. They’re not wrong simply because Republicans say them, no matter the high correlation.

      What TDH writes stands or falls on its evidence and logic. Why not point out the counter-evidence and the failures of logic? Do you think that’s too difficult?

      People come to this blog because Somerby used to discuss education issues.

      They do? It’s plausible, but how do you know that? I didn’t.

      Some who comment here are educators.

      They are? It’s plausible, but how do you know that?

      It is still possible to have interesting discussions in comments, even when Somerby is not saying anything useful.

      I agree.

      Second, there is no special pleasure in reading deadrat or any of the other trolls, who tend to interfere with discussion, which is what trolls do.

      That would have hurt my feeling. If I had any. But it’s easy to avoid the irritation: don’t read my comments. I always use my nym as a google id, so I’m always easy to spot.

      But labeling someone a troll because you disagree with them is as lazy as it’s possible to get. Don’t you know what a troll is? We have a perfect example in our own Village Troll, Mao. Trolls comment solely to get a reaction; they never provide information. Look at Mao — “Dembot!, Zombie cult!, Psycho-witch!” My comments have brought you material from the Florida statutes, the California Penal Code, Title18 of the United States Code, various Supreme Court precedents, and other relevant sources. You can’t see the difference?

      By the way, Mao doesn’t bother me at all. He always uses his google id, Mao Cheng Ji, so I can just skip his offereings

      If you don’t like my style, it’s fair to call me a jerk. But that’s different.

      I would bet that the people who read this blog spend a lot of their time helping children in some way and don't need to make their time-wasting meaningful.

      I’m not even sure what this means, but what makes you sure enough to wager that this blog’s readers help children?

      Delete
    4. deadrat,
      Don't forget to omit that Somerby criticizes my friend from the Right, AND he uses discredited,n Right-wing memes to do so. It makes you look less stupid.


      You have a friend from the Right? Do tell.

      Delete
    5. "Which ones? That immigrants are invading killers? That tax cuts for the wealthy are good for everyone? That isolationism will bring back industry? That the bar to voting should be as high as possible? That Jesus wrote the Constitution?"

      Deadrat asks which memes and then names some extreme ones. So, if Somerby doesn't use these particular memes, he doesn't use Republican memes at all? Not so. I have been pointing out the ways in which Somerby's argument mirror the Republican talking points of the day, for months now.

      If you were an education professional, you would recognize the expertise embodied in many of the comments that emerge when Somerby starts discussing an education issue. If you don't, it doesn't mean no one else can recognize expertise.

      It is a waste of time going through your questions. You say you want facts but what you actually want are specific details that are time consuming to produce. That is a kind of run-around because you tend not to acknowledge when anyone supplies what you ask for, and merely shift to some other triviality. That suggests you don't actually care about the topic at hand, for which you asked for cites or research of some kind.

      This blog has a following among those who work in education. I know it because an education-related post with some controversy tends to bring those people into the comments section. How do I know that educators help children? I could present NAEP scores, but I don't really believe they are the best measure of how children are helped by educators. If you think the people who work in our schools don't help children, you need to argue that somewhere else. You might try a home-schooling blog.

      Delete
    6. Deadrat asks which memes and then names some extreme ones. So, if Somerby doesn't use these particular memes, he doesn't use Republican memes at all?

      Most Republican memes are extreme, certainly the memes most popular amongst those who merely walk amongst us human. So if we’re agreed that TDH doesn’t use those, then I think we’d have to agree that TDH isn’t much of a Republican shill. Of course, that doesn’t mean that TDH doesn’t present talking points that Republicans also support, but we’re agreed these aren’t the most extreme, no? Those we can analyze.

      For instance, Republicans and TDH say that the wage gap for women working the same jobs as men isn’t $.22 on the dollar, but more like two or three cents on the dollar.

      For instance, Republicans and TDH say that the evidence shows that Michael Brown wasn’t murdered in Ferguson, MO.

      We can check those things, and what we find will be independent of what Republicans say.

      I have been pointing out the ways in which Somerby's argument mirror the Republican talking points of the day, for months now.

      You’re going to have to forgive me, but I haven’t seen any comments that present evidence that TDH simply mirrors bad Republican talking points. I would apologize to you in particular, but you refuse to have the courtesy to use a nym, so it’s hard to pinpoint your comments.

      If you were an education professional, you would recognize the expertise embodied in many of the comments that emerge when Somerby starts discussing an education issue.

      Well, I’m not an “education professional,” although you have no way to know whether that claim is true or not. But even though the claim is true, I can still recognize relevant expertise when I can check the arguments that emerge on the topic.

      But I don’t know why this is relevant. You claimed that people come here because TDH used to discuss education and that some of those people were educators. Beyond general interest, I’ve got no idea why anyone comes here, and I certainly have no idea of the jobs commenters hold. I wondered how you knew. That’s all.

      It is a waste of time going through your questions.

      More of a waste of time than any other commenting? Although it’s uncharitable of me, I suspect you mean you can’t answer them.

      You say you want facts but what you actually want are specific details that are time consuming to produce.

      Please stop telling me what I actually want. That’s my job. Yes, details are sometimes time consuming to produce, but to be fair, I spend my share of time coming up with the details to support my arguments, so I don’t feel bad about asking you to do the same. If you don’t have the time, that’s understandable.

      Some of your claims can’t reasonably be substantiated no matter how much time you took. Which makes me ask why you made them in the first place.

      … [Y]ou tend not to acknowledge when anyone supplies what you ask for, and merely shift to some other triviality.

      This is an untruth, so you should probably stop saying it.

      This blog has a following among those who work in education. I know it because an education-related post with some controversy tends to bring those people into the comments section.

      Again, this is plausible, but I wonder how you know it to be so. Do people writing education blogs link to TDH? Do education journals cite TDH? Do the organizers of education conferences invite TDH to speak?

      Controversial blog entries brings in commenters, but I don’t know how you can tell they “work in education.”

      (con't ->)

      Delete
    7. (<-con't)

      How do I know that educators help children?

      No. Are you fuckin’ kidding me with this? What you wrote was “I would bet that the people who read this blog spend a lot of their time helping children in some way….” (Emphasis mine.) I asked how you knew that about the blog’s readers, not about educators.

      If you think the people who work in our schools don't help children, you need to argue that somewhere else.

      If you think that’s what I think, then you might want to go back and re-read my comment. This time for comprehension.

      You might try a home-schooling blog.

      For misrepresenting what I wrote, you might try to go fuck yourself and the horse you rode in on.

      And I mean that in the sincerest and kindest way possible.

      Delete
    8. "Most Republican memes are extreme..."

      All of them are made in bad faith. Somerby shouldn't be repeating them.

      Delete
    9. I don't know if Somerby still thinks the rural, white, working class isn't motivated by Trump's bigotry, but I do know that is a Right-wing meme which he repeats.

      Delete
    10. "For instance, Republicans and TDH say that the evidence shows that Michael Brown wasn’t murdered in Ferguson, MO."

      And they both point out the lies of the witnesses who said Brown had his hands up, while staying mum on the lies of the police officer who shot him.

      Delete
    11. lies of witnesses

      This is true. Are you disputing witnesses lied, some about actually being witnesses?

      lies of the police officer

      What lies? You used to claim the cop lied in his report, but I can’t find that report anywhere. What I can find is the criticism that Ferguson didn’t require a report from cops involved in a shooting.

      Now it’s possible that the cop lied. What did he lie about and where did he lie? That’s the put-up.

      If you haven’t got the goods, then I suggest the shut-up.

      Delete
    12. I don't know if Somerby still thinks the rural, white, working class isn't motivated by Trump's bigotry,….

      And it’s not something you can really know. So restrict yourself to what he writes. Does TDH say that rural, white, working class voters aren’t motivated by bigotry? I know he says it’s politically unproductive to call all rural, white, working class voters bigots. After all, although Trump won West Virginia by almost 42%, over 188K West Virginians voted for Clinton in 2016.

      but I do know that is a Right-wing meme which he repeats.

      Is this a right-wing meme? I’m sure if asked, feral Trumpers would deny rural, white supporters are bigots, but is this presumed denial a meme? Don’t right-wing memes involve things like Q-anon?

      Delete
  19. "Racial discrimination: Citizens, get ready to howl! According to Cohn, 24 percent of Democrats who voted for Clinton in these states believe that "discrimination against whites has become as big a problem as discrimination against blacks." 33 percent of Dem-leaning non-voters stated the same view".

    Ha! Ha! Ha!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. People repeat what they hear around them. This doesn't mean those Democratic voters are looking at stats or studying any of these issues. It means they hear grievance stories in media or from friends and that magnifies the magnitude of the problem in their minds.

      Delete
    2. I have never seen a study that measures the current amount of discrimination against whites or the current amount of discrimination against blacks. Perhaps a better comparison is discrimination against blacks vs. discrimination in favor of blacks (i.e., affirmation action).

      Discrimination in favor of blacks is visible: it's generally legal and sometimes legally required. Discrimination against blacks is illegal, so it's hidden. For that reason, it would be quite difficult to do the comparison. Not to mention that a comparison giving the "wrong" answer would be politically incorrect.

      Delete
    3. "Discrimination against blacks is illegal, so it's hidden."

      You just think it's hidden, because the Right-wing PC police don't like it pointed out.

      Delete
  20. If you are a Trump voter, thinking is not your strong suit.

    ReplyDelete
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