Has the New York Times changed its tune...

WEDNESDAY, MARCH 4, 2020

...concerning New York's Asian families?
Has the New York Times changed its tune concerning New York City's high-powered "specialized high schools?"

At present, admission to these high-powered schools is determined solely by results on a test. On that basis, the city's Asian kids win the bulk of the seats at these schools every year. Very few black and Hispanic kids qualify via the test.

Mayor de Blasio and Chancellor Carranza seem to think that there are lots of other kids who could benefit from these schools' high-powered courses of study. If that's true, it's a very good thing. The obvious step would be to increase the number of such schools, or to increase the number of seats at the schools which already exist.

The city could open a Stuyvesant II, a Stuyvesant High School Annex. There would then be twice as many seats for kids who can handle the work!

That would be the blindingly obvious move. Possibly for that very reason, de Blasio and Carranza have come up with a different idea.

Under their proposal, the number of seats at these high-powered schools would remain the same. Half the high-performing Asian kids would lose their seats at these schools, thereby opening the seats to black and Hispanic kids.

You'll almost never see a major proposal which seems to make less sense. Perhaps for that reason, the New York Times has never pursued the obvious question:

Instead of booting the highest performers, why doesn't the city simply increase the number of seats at such high-powered schools?

That question will never be asked because no good answer to the question will ever exist. But in a report in today's New York Times, we thought we saw the hapless newspaper changing its previous, unpleasant attitude toward the city's Asian families and kids.

Last year, the Times' reporting on this topic seemed to paint the Asian families as the villains of the piece. They were accused of buying their way into these schools through enrollment at "test prep" classes, even though the Asian families involved in this matter are the lowest-income demographic in the city.

It seems to us that today's report has begun to acknowledge the basic logic on the side of the Asian families, whose kids would lose their seats at these schools under the mayor's peculiar plan. To our ear, the newspaper's tone had changed.

A real discussion of this topic would involve the giant achievement gaps which exist between Gotham's different groups of kids. Since no such discussion will ever take place in the Times, the paper might at least be praised for failing to make the Asian families the scapegoats, as it seemed to be doing last year.

A blindingly obvious questions lies at the heart of this matter. We'll state that question one more time:

If so many of Gotham's kids can handle the work at these high-powered schools, why doesn't the city simply make more seats available, whether by expanding the existing schools or opening new high-powered schools?

You'll never see that obvious question asked by the New York Times. According to major anthropologists, this is the best our floundering species, and our most famous newspaper, were ever equipped to do.

38 comments:

  1. "On that basis, the city's Asian kids win the bulk of the seats at these schools every year."

    Jeez, what's with dembottery, dear Bob.
    Here, I'll fix it for you: on that basis, city's highest performers win the bulk of the seats at these schools every year. And that's all there is to it. Only a dembot would classify American children as 'Asian', 'black', and 'Hispanic'.

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  2. “The city could open a Stuyvesant II, a Stuyvesant High School Annex. There would then be twice as many seats for kids who can handle the work!”

    “Instead of booting the highest performers, why doesn't the city simply increase the number of seats at such high-powered schools?

    That question will never be asked because no good answer to the question will ever exist.”

    A couple of legitimate answers suggest themselves:
    1. money: doubling the number of seats would require doubling the staff, and the size of the facilities. You would presumably want to maintain the same class sizes as today.
    2. Logistics: new facilities would have to be obtained to house all of the new students.
    3. Status: “Stuyvesant II” isn’t equivalent to Stuyvesant, with its history, its reputation, its staff, its budget, etc. This would merely be a sop to the black and Hispanic students who still weren’t allowed in the real Stuyvesant.

    ReplyDelete
  3. India not only has a great deal of diversity and economic disparity, but social stratification is built into their most widespread religion and difficult to change. Instead of teaching people to treat others equally, they have instituted a quota system so that each caste has a proportionate number of seats at prestigious schools. This is seen as the fairest way to ensure equal opportunity in a nation that believes one's place in the world is fated.

    Somerby stubbornly refers to students of Asian heritage and Asian immigrant families as Asian, not Asian American. In that, he is just like conservatives, who never miss an opportunity to label people as foreigners (Others). He uses the age-old divide-and-conquer technique to pit Democrats against immigrants (so-called Asian families), as if to trick liberals into choosing one minority over another. His solution is to snap his fingers and increase the school budgets to the point where there are more seats available (as if the number of Asian students wouldn't fill all of the added seats long before an African American or Hispanic student qualified by test scores for them).

    Within the Asian group, there are "highest performers" and less high performers too. One assumes that the highest performers would be unaffected by the proposed change, since half of the seats would still be reserved for Asian students. There is always a cut-off, this plan just adjusts what that cut-off is for Asian and Asian American students. Having different cut-offs for different groups strikes me as fair because there are different life experiences, opportunities and schooling available to the different groups too. A student who does exceptionally well under adverse circumstances surely has the capacity to flourish under more nurturing conditions, in my opinion.

    Notice how Somerby gives no credit to the numerous consultations among school administrators and education experts that must have preceded announcement of this revised policy. They must have access to information, such as where those displaced Asian students will go and whether they will gain college admittance if denied entrance to Stuyvesant. It is hard for me to believe this wasn't discussed at length, but Somerby assumes they are all just being political, or jerks, or hate Asians (he seems to imply) because they don't care about the effect on them -- which is what he also wants to accuse liberals of doing.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Somerby assumes they [school administrators] .are all just being political, or jerks, or hate Asians (he seems to imply) because they don't care about the effect on them -- which is what he also wants to accuse liberals of doing.

      Yeah, it’s a TDH trope: since I can’t read your mind, I’ll judge you on how you act and the evident results that thereby obtain.

      Notice how Somerby gives no credit to the numerous consultations among school administrators and education experts that must have preceded announcement of this revised policy. They must have access to information….

      Damn, but that’s just adorable!

      Delete
    2. 'Somerby stubbornly refers to students of Asian heritage and Asian immigrant families as Asian, not Asian American. In that, he is just like conservatives, who never miss an opportunity to label people as foreigners (Others).'

      naturally, since Somerby is a Hard Core Trumptard, he repeats right wing tropes and memes.

      Delete
  4. If so many of Gotham's kids can handle the work at these high-powered schools, why doesn't the city simply make more seats available?

    Bob knows the answer. The city's black and Hispanic kids are far below the Asian kids, on average. IMHO the right question is how the city's black and Hispanic and white kids can raise their performance to match the Asian kids. I think that would require a change in culture. That is what the government should be pursuing.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It isn't culture that produces the difference between Asian American kids and black kids. It is a long history of discrimination, racism and unequal treatment, for both parents and their children. Asian Americans, despite sometimes being poor or immigrants, have not experienced systematic suppression of literacy, are not over-policed, are not targeted by drug dealers, are not treated with suspicion and hostility and assumed to be stupid until proven otherwise. They have a different experience because there are different stereotypes and attitudes towards them. In places where Asian kids are treated as inferior, violence-prone, useless, they have similar problems to African American kids. There is nothing magical about being Asian that protects them. And they do not have inherently superior IQs, as you have suggested before.

      Your idea that the government should engage in culture change is ridiculous. How would you like having the government tell you that you have to send your daughter to Chinese school on the weekend?

      Delete
    2. Anon 7:03 - I agree that the ultimate cause was the long history of discrimination, racism and unequal treatment. However, these causes manifest themselves in today's culture. For whatever reason, Asian families put great stress on academic performance (and performance in other fields, as well.) If black and Hispanic families put equal stress into academic performance, the racial gap would be solved.

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    3. Some Asian families do and some do not. You are making these generalizations based on stereotypes. An example of Asian families who do not do this are the very poor second-wave Vietnamese boat people who came to the US as refugees after 1975. They live in large numbers in Garden Grove (OC) and San Diego. Those immigrant neighborhoods have had crime and drug problems, poverty, and the kids are not all wonderful students whose parents have pushed them to do well in school. Further, studies of immigrant Asian families show that the emphasis on education disappears after two generations in the US, and the American born kids are just like non-minority students, with the same average GPA, test scores and ambitions as their non-Aisan peers.

      Further, black families have traditionally seen education as a path to success. Many black students have been pushed by parents to succeed. See the movie Hidden Figures. In families where this happens, the kids become quite successful, just like in white families who emphasize education. But just as in white families, black families vary and some stress education while others do not.

      The racial gap doesn't exist because black parents don't care about education. Lots of white parents don't care much about education either. Part of the racial gap exists because of stereotype threat -- the test anxiety that arises when a student knows that he or she is expected to do poorly on a test because of race. This also occurs for women and math tests. It even occurs when white male students are told that they aren't as good at math as Asian students, and then are given a math test.

      The racial gap could be solved substantially if health care were the same across races. Students who don't get their hearing and eyesight tested, whose ear infections aren't treated, whose allergies are ignored, who have asthma, all will perform worse on tests such as NAEP and they will be prevented from keeping up in class. Simply being hungry in the morning or having no cash for lunch interferes with learning. So those school meal programs that Trump keeps cutting are important and their loss contributes to the gap because more black kids are poor and food-insecure (e.g., hungry a lot).

      But it is easier to just look at black kids and say that if they do poorly and they are all black, their performance must be related to their skin color -- the most visible shared characteristic, and not to some other factor they have in common (with each other and with similar white and Asian kids). So many stupid people are bigoted because it is a simple conclusion to jump to, and they just can't think beyond the surface.

      Delete
  5. Hey DavidinCal: fuck off with your "black culture" bullshit. This comment zone is much, much better without you and your racist input.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thedesis -- what works is what works. Asian students do better, on average, because their families put more stress on doing well. The same was true of Jewish students a few generations ago. Read about how Sonya Carson raised her children.
      https://www.historyswomen.com/amazingmoms/SonyaCarson.html

      It's not racist to suggest that other parents emulate Sonya Carson. On the contrary, there's no virtue in promoting feel-good, PC approaches that don't work.

      Delete
    2. Thedesis - some research shows that liberal educational policies have made the gap worse.

      He cites a report from Brightbeam, “The Secret Shame: How America’s Most Progressive Cities Betray Their Commitment to Educational Opportunity For All.” The report is authored by Chris Stewart, a liberal activist from Minnesota. He studied why the progressive public schools in Minneapolis’s biggest cities have among the country’s worst achievement gaps between white and black students.

      https://brightbeamnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/The-Secret-Shame_v4.pdf

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    3. You have only said that yet another big city school has a racial achievement gap. You haven't shown that it is because the school is progressive. Nor have you shown that being progressive has made the gaps worse (controlling for economic factors).

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    4. @8:40 Chris Stewart (a liberal BTW) showed in his study that progressive education has produced larger gaps than conservative education. The study is at the link above.

      Delete
    5. David, I don't think there is such a thing as Progressive Education versus Conservative Education. I am not interested in reading anything with that premise. It sounds like propaganda to me.

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    6. Of course it's propaganda, the kind of right-wing bilge that's the only thing David, our Village Idiot, reads and regurgitates here. To find out just how dishonest this latest piece of his bullshit is go here: http://blog.opportunity.mn/2020/01/response-to-research-shows-progressive.html. Or don't bother. I promise it's as you suspected.

      Delete
    7. deadrat and @9:26 - It's natural that conservatives would pick up on a study that reflects well on conservatism. However, don't forget that the actual study was performed by a liberal. A liberal wouldn't promote a study that reflects badly on liberalism, unless he truly believed that the study has something of value to tell us.

      deadrat, thanks for the link to that criticism.

      Delete
    8. The difference is that Conservatives, as a rule, are lying pieces of shit.

      Delete
    9. "I think that would require a change in culture."

      Stewart has never even implied that a student's cultural background is at the root of his or her learning problems.

      Yet, without anything other than cherrypicking sources to suit your racism, you make and defend this stupid assertion.

      You're nothing more than a low-life punk polluting this comment zone.

      Get out!

      Delete
  6. “A real discussion of this topic would involve the giant achievement gaps which exist between Gotham's different groups of kids.”

    A discussion to what purpose? To conclude that blacks and Hispanics don’t deserve to go to the specialized high schools because they don’t perform well on the naep?

    The truth is that we as a society have failed these kids.

    Somerby wants to accuse de Blasio and the New York Times of being anti-Asian, which seems ridiculous to me.

    It would be much more interesting to discuss the ways in which modern school choice and gifted and talented programs might be harming our public schools. School choice, including charter schools, turns schools into consumer goods, and enhances, rather than alleviates, segregation, not just by race, but by income.

    Gifted and talented programs, up to and including ones like the specialized high schools, end up segregating students by academic achievement; in many cases it is a physical segregation. Is that the best thing for students? You end up with groups of “bright” students who may not ever interact with less “bright” students. In the case of New York, this segregation can begin as early as grade school. That would seem to create an elite group of students with no experience of their less gifted classmates. What lessons are the “gifted” students learning?

    Should our public schools be doing this?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If you don't segregate gifted kids in a school, they self-segregate. Later in life, when they can choose their own friends, they similarly self-segregate. Kids unconsciously choose their friends by their vocabulary levels, interests and sense of humor. If you put gifted kids in with entirely non-gifted kids, they make comparisons and decide that they are weird, unlikable, odd. They may be bullied. Suicide rates for gifted kids are higher than for non-gifted. Gifted kids in non-gifted classes are referred to special ed evaluation because teachers too consider them different, but don't necessarily know why. Gifted kids who go through non-gifted classes are more likely to drop out and more likely to act out and get into trouble, develop problems with authority. All of this is why gifted classes were set up to begin with. It isn't so that gifted kids can feel special and form elites. It is because there are major problems for some of them if their academic and social/emotional needs are not met.

      So, yes, our schools should definitely be doing this.

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    2. I see your point. But by “this”, I meant a total segregation of kids. Isn’t part of the goal of public school in a democracy to educate children to get along with their peers, whether they are poor, black, gifted, or non-gifted? You can’t do that if they attend different schools/classes their whole lives.

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    3. Gifted kids are not segregated in PE, electives, clubs and school organizations, or social activities. Most gifted kids grow up in neighborhoods where there are other kids who they have also known their whole lives (or as long as they've lived there). Many know other kids in church or organized non-school sports and dance or music lessons, and in their extended families.

      This is the same argument used against home schooling. You could keep a child isolated, but most parents don't do that. The goal isn't to keep gifted kids away from others but to provide them the chance to learn at their own speed and not be judged harshly for their interests and curiosity.

      Delete
    4. The kids in NYC’s specialized high schools don’t interact with non-gifted kids. There are no non-gifted kids at those schools. The same is true at academically segregated middle schools in NYC: the student body is solely composed of gifted students. This is what I mean by total segregation. Many kids there have little to no interaction with anyone but other gifted kids.

      In the case of NYC’s Asian students, it’s possible that many Asian kids hardly ever interact with anyone but other Asian kids, at home and in school. What is their view of the world and of American society?

      Delete
    5. There are no non-talented kids at the performing arts schools, and no non-science oriented kids at the science high schools. There are no girls at boys schools and vice versa. There are lots of ways to segregate kids. I don't think that making a stand about science and math talented kids but not other kids of segregation is fair. I also think that there are many other opportunities for kids to interact beyond school, especially in NYC. So I don't agree that segregation is total.

      These kids are going to college, where they will mix only with other college students. Then they will get jobs in places like computing or law firms, where they mix only with computer people or lawyers and legal staff. Is that wrong too?

      In career counseling, kids can be divided into two categories: (1) early deciders, and (2) late deciders. The early deciders tend to be those who are focused on math and science and medicine/veterinary careers. They form their interests and goals around age 10 and are single-minded about them. It isn't their parents pushing them. The late deciders don't know what they want to do, so they are more exploratory. Many will go into the arts, writing or social sciences, which do require the kind of breadth of experience you describe. Kids who are talented in sports or performing arts tend to show their gifts early, although some find acting and film in college not high school. I don't think it is right to force a preconceived idea of what is best for a child onto that child without taking these kinds of differences into account. Middle schools have traditionally tried to expose students to a required array of different classes, including music, metal and wood shop, arts & crafts, so that kids who don't know what they like or are good at, can discover their strengths. But if a child knows already what they want, it isn't right to force them to delay or suppress such interests, nor to prevent them from pursuing their educational goals on the theory that they should be more well rounded.

      That said, I think parents should take their kids places and expose them to a wide slice of life so that they can know more about the world. That should start at birth and continue as a way of living. But it shouldn't replace focused education for kids who know what they want to do.

      In the sciences, so much education is needed to become proficient, that the sooner a student begins, the sooner they can pursue work and start their real lives. In medicine, someone who specializes will be 30 before they start their jobs, can buy a house and start a family. If they can speed that up even by a year or two, it is helpful. The others sciences are similar. You want to get to the productive part quickly. This is not as much of a concern in other fields.

      I personally think it is good for all kinds of people to interact, but I don't think that is going to happen when most parents fear that their kids will meet different people and perhaps marry outside their race, religion, culture. That used to keep Latinas out of college -- their parents wouldn't let them go for fear they would become unmarriageable. That has changed, but there are still fears that an Asian boy will come home with a non-Asian girlfriend, or that a child will lose his or her religion by hanging out with those with different beliefs, and so on. People self-segregate to protect their culture and their kids. All groups do it. It is what West Side Story was about.

      Delete
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  14. Greetings to the general public, i want to tell you about how i was cured of HERPES Virus by a Doctor called Dr Abraham . I was browsing through the Internet searching for remedy and fast cure on HERPES Virus and i saw comment of people talking about how Doctor Abraham cured them. I Was scared because i never believed in the Internet but i was convince to give him a try because i having no hope of been cured of HERPES so i decided to contact him with his email that was listed on the comment drizokpuabraham@gmail. com.) when i contacted him he gave me hope and send a Herbal medicine to me that i took and it seriously worked for me, am a free person now without problem, my HERPES result came out negative. I pray for you Dr Abraham God will give you everlasting life, you shall not die before your time for being a sincere and grate men. Am so happy, you can also contact him on whatsapp___ +2348071244940 , you can also reach him on email drizokpuabraham@gmail. com. and he also have medication for others disease like
    HIV/AIDS
    PENIS ENLARGEMENT
    PREGNANCY Problem
    DIABETES
    PSV
    ANXIETY
    etc
    Thank you sir for your help

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