MONDAY, MARCH 3, 2025
What happened in the Oval: Are we in the midst of a Weeke That Was—an historically serious moment?
Concerning that, time will tell. As to what actually happened last week in the Oval, we think a lengthy report by CNN included an admirable degree of detail.
For the record, the actual session on the Oval Office lasted almost exactly 50 minutes. We thought this part of CNN's report was basically accurate, and we found it especially striking:
Inside the 139 minutes that upended the US-Ukraine alliance
[...]
For the first 40 minutes of their talks, Trump did not evince outward bitterness toward Zelensky, instead discussing the minerals deal they were planning to sign later in the day.
Indeed, upstairs in the East Room a long wooden table had been prepared for the signing ceremony, with four chairs ready for the signatories.
It was never to be.
Ignore the time frame stated in the headline. "139 minutes" is the amount of time which elapsed from the moment Zelensky arrived at the White House to the moment he drove away.
As for the Oval Office meeting itself, that lasted almost exactly 50 minutes. You can confirm that fact on the videotape which appears at C-Span's actual site—a piece of tape which didn't seem to be working correctly when we linked elsewhere on Sunday.
At any rate, right there in its lengthy report, CNN says this:
For the first 40 minutes of their talks, Trump did not evince outward bitterness toward Zelensky.
Truer words were never spoken! In fact, we think that passage actually understates the mellow of the ongoing situation that day, along with the suddenness with which the Friday event melted down:
For the first 40 minutes of their talks, Trump didn't evince outward bitterness toward Zelensky? In fact, we'd say the actual number was higher than that, and we'd say that President Trump didn't seem to display any discomfort at all.
Looking at the C-Span tape, we'd say that President Trump shows no discomfort of any kind until the 43-minute mark. In fact, it's Vice President "JD" Vance who jumps in at the 40-minute mark with the first sign that someone is unhappy with the way the event is going.
At that point, Trump says there will be one more question—and just like that, up jumps Vance! By the 41-minute mark, Vance is visibly angry. He's now scolding and lecturing the visiting president about what he perceives to be Zelensky's vast amount of disrespect.
As for President Trump, he doesn't jump in until the 43-minute mark. Only then does he seem to be angry, although he does keeps getting louder and angrier from that fatal moment on.
Repeating:
Right through the first forty-plus minutes, we see no sign that President Trump is unhappy with President Zelensky's attitude or behavior. He doesn't even seem to be bothered by all the eyerolls—by the deeply disturbing eyerolls which in fact never occurred.
The two presidents were, in fact, adopting different points of view about one significant matter. Zelensky was saying that Ukraine will need security guarantees from Europe and the United States to guard against Putin's inevitable decision to violate any ceasefire.
In real time, Trump didn't seem to want to do that. But for 43 minutes, there was no indication that he was about to blow his stack. He's emotionally normal through 43 minutes—and then, the volcano erupts.
To our eye, that's strange and oddly aberrant behavior. But then, what else is new?
Our question would be this:
What could possibly lie behind such erratic behavior?
What lies behind such behavior? You'll never see a certain type of possibility examined within Blue America's press. Those orgs and those journalists have all agreed that a certain obvious possibility must never be discussed or explained or evaluated.
The behavior by Trump struck us as erratic. Why does this happen with such regularity?
Within the press, the watchword is clear:
Whatever you do, don't ask!
"security guarantees" is a euphemism for American soldiers on the ground in Ukraine and/or membership in NATO. I think most Dems agree with that we should not do this. Is there anyone on this board who thinks we should station American fighting forces Ukraine or invite Ukraine into NATO?
ReplyDeleteI understand Trump's switch from genial to argumentative. Trump believed that the Oval Office was a show to celebrate the signing of a minerals deal. When Trump finally realized that there was to be no minerals deal, and that Z was using the meeting as a PR effort, Trump's attitude changed.
Who was ruder: Trump, Z or Vance? It's hard to say. But, IMO Z, the visitor and supplicant, was unwise to interrupt Trump, even if Trump was interrupting him
BS David. You know Trump lies about everything he speaks of. Everything. A security deal could simply be sending more arms and supporting European Union troops on the ground. You are the most gullible person I know besides every other bigoted Republican in the world. Shame on you DiC, you shameless prick.
DeleteNicholas Grossman
@nicholasgrossman.bsky.social
Follow
Yes, the US mostly sent Ukraine older equipment the Pentagon had wanted to replace, then paid US manufactures for new, more advanced equipment.
Rarely does foreign policy deliver such a good cost-benefit ratio. That's why, to oppose this moral and strategic move, Trump-Vance-Musk-MAGA have to lie.
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DeleteArty, what do you mean by "supporting European Union troops on the ground"? Isn't that just another euphemism for putting American troops on the ground in Ukraine?
DeleteEngaging DiC in an honest discussion is not possible, about a meeting in which Tass was allowed in, not AP nor Reuters, and an attempt to humiliate Zelensky over his dress was made by Trump and his cronies. This meeting plus now Hegseth’s cybersecurity orders might as well have been directly ordered by Putin. MAGAs are now fully unAmerican.
Delete@5:44 -- It makes little difference which media were in that Oval Office meeting. It was broadcast real time, so Reuters and AP had the same opportunity as Tass to report what happened.
DeleteDiC - your entire argument is give Putin anything he wishes or else. There is no other solution for you. I say as long as Ukrainians are in the mood, keep blowing Russian shit the fuck up. Over 10,000 tanks. 23,000 artillery systems. The 2'nd world army reduced to meat assaults in Chinese golf carts, dirt bikes, and donkey logistics. Over 840,000 Russian soldiers removed from the battlefield. (They have a weird culture that is OK with the slaughter, apparently.) Yes, this is exactly the time to call a cease fire and let the war criminals re-arm. Putin has been at war with the west since 2014. He ain't stopping after Ukraine. Wake up. Seriously wrong about everything, unless you are routing for the war criminals, then you are winning!
DeleteNazi DiC agrees with the felon - the (free) press is the enemy of the people.
DeleteArty -- you might be right. There's a fine line between supporting Putin and buttering up Putin in order to get a deal. Here's one objective observation. So far, the only thing Trump has given Putin is words.
DeleteArty - re your comment about free press. There may be around 200 media in the world. Around half a dozen were inside the Oval Office. Are you saying that Trump restricted the freedom of 194 media? And, when Obama allowed half a dozen media into the Oval Office, was Obama restricting the freedom of 194 media?
DeleteArty, Ukraine needs more bodies. When are you going over there?
DeleteThe scolding and bullying started with Vance. The vice-president has no role in a meeting like this one.
DeleteQuaker - I agree that Vance's scolding set the big todo off. However, before Vance jumped in, Z had already insulted Trump and disputed some of the things Trump said. However, Trump continued to treat Z graciously. Later, when Z told Trump how he would feel if Putin was victorious. That's where Trump's jumped in with "Don't tell me how to feel."
DeleteAnd, please don't tell me that Trump's statements needed correcting and disputing. That kind of behavior is not normal or appropriate in a televised meeting.
BTW Z had a logical inconsistency. Z said that his war was also America's war. But, he also pointed out that the US was not at risk because there's an ocean separating us from Europe.
Vance wouldn’t “jump in” without permission. His tirade was choreographed to make Zelensky look bad.
Delete@10:35 If Vance comment was choreographed, he wouldn't have waited 20 or 30 minute before jumping in.
DeleteDiC, your theory makes zero fucking sense.
DeleteDiC - "already insulted Trump." Boo Hoo. I love the if Zelensky only had a better attitude everything would have been fine lie. The Felon Admin had just arranged for negotiations that included Russia, but excluded him. The Monday prior the U.S. voted against a UN resolution condemning Russia as the aggressor in the ongoing war in Ukraine (along with Russian arms/troops suppliers). Was working to remove Russian economic sanctions, and punish Ukraine with an onerous mineral contract with no security garuntees. Do better Dave. Putin had sealed the deal years ago. It's just "good" television to the Felon. Following a reality show loose "script" like the good old days when he got to pretend to be a successful businessman on TV.
DeleteArty says Trump was working to remove Russian economic sanctions. But, Trump didn't have to work to remove the sanctions. As President, he could have removed them with a stroke of his pen. In fact, Trump didn't remove them. He renewed them.
DeleteWhite House directs officials to draft proposal to lift US sanctions on Russia
Deletehttps://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/03/trump-sanctions-russia
Dickhead in Cal will come back and say Trump is a genius for proposing to lift US sanctions on Russia. Wait for it.
DeleteNeocons are trying to rein in the intellectually disabled reality tv star before he accidentally shows war isn't the answer to everything. Even hillbillies can be neocons apparently.
DeleteUS suspends all military aid to Ukraine in wake of Trump-Zelenskyy row
DeleteMoscow celebrated the decision, with the Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov saying the US had been “the main supplier of this war so far”.
European and Nato allies were not informed in advance, a Polish foreign ministry spokesperson said.
This aid has already been authorized and approved by Congress. Again, tRump is acting illegally.
Delete"Moscow celebrated the decision"
Are you saying that there was a street celebration in Moscow?
Are you reporting from Moscow, idiot-Democrat?
Why don't you call the reporter who wrote the story and ask him, Boris?
Deletehttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/mar/04/us-military-aid-ukraine-pause-trump-zelenskyy-updates
David in Cal,
DeleteWhy is that you hate when politicians smash norms so much?
Hey nationalists in West/East, how many more people have to die while we watch your internet pissing contests?
DeleteThe stupid never ends... "was unwise to interrupt Trump, even if Trump was interrupting him" This whole signing thing was choreographed by Putin. And somebody explain to me how the invaded country should pay the penalties. Why aren't you asking for the seized Russian assets to be used to blow up Russian assets? Shameless prick.
ReplyDeleteThe prospect of an alliance with Russia is becoming realistic and extremely appealing.
ReplyDeleteCheck it out.
DeleteThe Republican Congressional Caucus is posting at TDH, now.
This report is just not accurate.
ReplyDeleteEven after Trump became impatient with the little dictator, he continued to be charming toward the little dictator, complimenting his clothing and telling him he likes him.
I re-listened to parts of the meeting. Z interrupted Trump before Trump interrupted him. According to WaPo, Z was asked to wear a suit, but dressed casually. And, his casual-looking clothes were actually expensive, name-brand stuff.
DeleteZ was a performer. From a performer's POV he's in Heaven. He's a star on the world stage. Very well paid. Lauded by many all over the world. It's a total personal victory.
Of course, thousands of conscripted Ukrainians are dying every week. Apparently that's less important to Z than his worldwide stardom.
You are a disgrace DiC.
DeleteWhat's a few hundred thousand dead if it means Vogue shoots and hanging with Ben Stiller?
DeleteIf caring about dead Ukrainian boys makes a disgrace...
DeleteYou called zelensky a performer. He’s the leader of a democratic country under attack by an autocratic regime with nuclear weapons. He’s fighting for his country, and so are his fellow Ukrainians. Why are you so fucking eager to hand Putin everything he wants and fuck over Ukraine? Asshole.
DeleteYou do realize, DiC, that Putin won’t stop with Ukraine. How many more countries have to suffer the same fate as Ukraine? Something tells me you wouldn’t demand a unilateral capitulation if Israel were being attacked in a similar way.
DeleteYou know who doesn’t care about Ukrainian lives, or Russian lives, DiC? Vladimir Putin. He needlessly attacked Ukraine and could end the fucking war right fucking now.
DeleteThe only thing Dickhead cares about is polishing every turd dumped by Trump on this country. That is it.
DeleteYou're certainly right, @8:36. Another fact is that Putin has more men and he's ruthless. Russia cannot be defeated.
DeleteSo, what we do about the situation? Verbally blasting Putin is appealing, but it's not a solution. Mindlessly continuing the current strategy of Ukrainian troops fighting with weapons provided by the US and EU is not working. Trump's idea of a peace deal may not work, but I think it's better than the alternatives.
@8:30 -- "if"? Israel IS being attacked that way. The Palestinians in Gaza want to kill every Israeli Jew. They have said so. And, Oct 7 shows that they mean it.
Delete8:28 Ukraine is corrupt and Zelensky is a dictator. Not another cent or body to this useless war.
DeleteConvince Putin.
DeleteThe Europeans were appalled by the treatment given Zelensky in the oval office by a couple of clowns who benefited from Russian misinformation in the run-up to the last election. EU member states will strengthen their alliances having judged accurately that the US is no longer a reliable ally. We are entering an inflationary period and a recession driven by tariffs and other dumbass Trump fiscal policy decisions. DiC would like to pretend otherwise but he is soiling himself by adhering to the right wing narrative that blames Zelenski for being ambushed by the Putin puppet in chief Las Friday.
DeleteDavid in Cal,
DeleteYou gotta love Zelensky's out of the box thinking.
He knows that his smashing of norms is what has made him one of the most charismatic and popular world leaders.
Meanwhile Trump looks like a sickly narwhal stuffed in a size 90 suit. It's no wonder people think he'll be dead before the year is out.
"Of course, thousands of conscripted Ukrainians are dying every week. Apparently that's less important to Z than his worldwide stardom."
DeletePretty impressive armchair psychoanalysis. Where did you get your degree, from Lazyboy?
Delete"his worldwide stardom"
I haven't noticed any stardom. State-run media in the US and Western Europe are trying to make the clown a symbol of the Western Empire, but I don't see him being famous among the ordinary people.
The person who started the chest thumping and blew up the dialogue is clear in the video.
ReplyDeleteIt seemed more of an Andy than a Dwight moment. Andy did become boss after Michael.
It's not surprising that a former businessman is motivated by money. Of course, as President he's saving OUR money.
ReplyDelete-- DOGE
-- Cease fire in Gaza
-- Cease fire in Ukraine
-- Rare earths deal with Ukraine
-- Cost of dealing with unvetted immigrants
Bullshit. You are a disgrace, your president is a disgrace. Why must you constantly engage in abject mindless praise of Trump, every day of your life?
DeleteWe don't know how much money DOGE is saving. They keep adding things to their "wall of receipts" and then taking them down after someone points out their errors. They also aren't taking into account the cost of the consequences of their supposed cuts. Do we actually know that DOGE is saving any money at all?
DeleteA cease fire in Gaza saves us very little because we weren't a party to that conflict. Maybe Israel will need a little less support once they're not turning Gaza into rubble. But then, Trump has proposed pouring billions into Gaza to relocate the population, clear the destruction and build a new resort.
A cease fire in Ukraine has not happened. Savings: $0
The "raw earths" deal? Not signed. Savings: $0
Cost of dealing with unvetted migrants? (Weird phrasing, by the way) Savings undetermined. If Trump deports as many people as he has promised, we'll see a hit to tax revenues and an increase in inflation.
Otherwise, well done,
He cost me a fucking fortune today with his insane tariffs, Dickhead.
DeleteDavid in Cal cares about keeping black people down. Don't let him distract you with his economic ignorance.
DeleteRegarding the successful businessman that rubes like DiC admire, remember that the orange Jesus was unable to obtain a business loan from any US bank and found himself ultimately reduced to pasting his name onto buildings he did not own to accrue income.
DeleteDavid in Cal,
DeleteSince you were unwilling to tell me which of Trump's many, many bankruptcies is your favorite and why, I marked you down in the "Too many Trump bankruptcies to choose only one as their favorite" column.
"Of course, as President he's saving OUR money."
DeleteEven if your wish list of savings actually comes true, their sum total would represent a tiny fraction of the trillions in deficit-ballooning tax cuts Trump is proposing.
Who do you supppose will pay for those?
DeleteDo you realize that a well-designed tax cut could stimulate economic growth, leading to deficit reduction?
I understand that being a Soros-bot you must refuse to believe that it'll happen this time around, but do you at least admit that it's a theoretical possibility?
Here you go, trumpard:
Delete"Added interest costs plus the revenue losses from TCJA extension result in a combined deficit increase of $5.4 trillion ($4.6 trillion dynamically) from 2025 through 2034.
Long-run debt-to-GDP would increase from its baseline projection of 184 percent in 2060 to 212 percent conventionally and 205 percent dynamically."
"incorporating the Trump administration’s major tax proposals into the FY2025 House budget reconciliation would require that the provisions mostly sunset by December 31, 2033. Even so, primary deficits would increase by $5.1 trillion before economic effects and by $4.9 trillion after modest, positive economic effects."
https://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2025/2/27/fy2025-house-budget-reconciliation-and-trump-tax-proposals-effects
https://www.google.com/search?q=deficit+effect+of+TCJA&sca_esv=077ea0a66320161e&sxsrf=AHTn8zqNQSodzF1rcPhuEuXFQTnu5VNZSA%3A1741101494573&ei=thnHZ8fbIuG90PEPkdK64QU&ved=0ahUKEwjHjujA3PCLAxXhHjQIHRGpLlwQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=deficit+effect+of+TCJA&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiFmRlZmljaXQgZWZmZWN0IG9mIFRDSkEyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABMgUQIRifBTIFECEYnwUyBRAhGJ8FMgUQIRifBTIFECEYnwUyBRAhGJ8FSOpAUABYvzpwAHgAkAEAmAHvAqAB7BuqAQgwLjE5LjIuMbgBA8gBAPgBAZgCFqACwx3CAgoQIxiABBgnGIoFwgIEECMYJ8ICExAuGIAEGMcBGCcYigUYjgUYrwHCAgsQABiABBiRAhiKBcICChAAGIAEGEMYigXCAg8QIxiABBgnGIoFGEYY-QHCAicQABiABBiKBRhGGPkBGJcFGIwFGN0EGEYY-QEY9AMY9QMY9gPYAQHCAhMQABiABBiRAhixAxiKBRhGGPkBwgINEAAYgAQYsQMYQxiKBcICERAAGIAEGJECGLEDGIMBGIoFwgIIEAAYgAQYsQPCAi0QABiABBiRAhixAxiKBRhGGPkBGJcFGIwFGN0EGEYY-QEY9AMY9QMY9gPYAQHCAg4QABiABBiRAhixAxiKBcICBRAAGIAEwgIGEAAYFhgewgILEAAYgAQYhgMYigXCAgUQABjvBcICCBAAGIAEGKIEmAMAugYGCAEQARgTkgcIMC4xOS4yLjGgB53DAQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp
Trump rox, Z sux, and that's the end of it.
ReplyDeleteRandall Kohn is a fucking idiot.
DeleteWhy is trump destroying NOAA?
ReplyDeleteHow Americans will feel the impact of Trump’s weather forecasting layoffs
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2025/03/01/weather/noaa-weather-forecast-layoffs
DOGE moves to cancel NOAA leases on key weather buildings
https://www.axios.com/2025/03/03/doge-noaa-weather-building-leases-trump
More on DOGE doings:
ReplyDeleteA NY Times reporter just related on CNN that some of the contracts DOGE had been counting as current savings had been cancelled as far back as prior to the first Trump administration.
Now that's governmental efficiency.
Who cares? Elon is using a chainsaw not a scalpel.
DeleteThe point is he is kying about the savings.
Deletetypo: lying
Delete
DeleteOr, rather, lying about lying.
Who is their right mind would trust a NY Times reporter on CNN? That's beyond ludicrous.
Totally. Except no one from DOGE is contradicting what the reporter is saying. In fact DOGE has twice had to revise downward its claimed savings as a result of this reporter's critique.
DeleteDid you hear this from another NY Times reporter, Soros-bot?
DeleteNo I made it up, trumptard. Musk is honest and the stock market isn't crashing.
DeleteTotalitarianism in power invariably replaces all first-rate talents, regardless of their sympathies, with those crackpots and fools whose lack of intelligence and creativity is still the best guarantee of their loyalty.
ReplyDelete—Hannah Arendt