LONGING FOR BETTER DISCOURSE: Journalist longs for better discourse!

MONDAY, JULY 13, 2020

Reporting statistics is hard:
In the very first thing we read today, Slate's Lili Loofbourow said it:

"I get the longing for better discourse. I even share it."

Officially, everyone longs for better discourse. But better discourse is hard.

Actually, Loofbourow's essay was perhaps the second thing we read today. At present, the first thing we consult each morning is the Washington Post's tabulation of the previous day's number of coronavirus deaths nationwide.

This morning, the Washington Post is reporting yesterday's number. That number may seem relatively low. Here are the recent figures:
Daily deaths, nationwide, due to coronavirus
July 8: 897
July 9: 876
July 10: 849
July 11: 725
July 12: 483
It may appear that the number of deaths is going down. By most lights, that would be a misinterpretation.

Yesterday, only 483 deaths were recorded nationwide—but the key word there is "recorded." You see, the daily number reported by the Post (and by everyone else) isn't a measure of the actual deaths which occurred on the particular day in question.

Instead, it's a record of the number of deaths which were officially recorded that day—and official reporting tends to slow over every weekend. The deaths which don't get reported on weekend days are then folded into the daily numbers as the workweek proceeds.

With that explained, now understand this: Yesterday's 483 reported deaths actually raised the 7-day rolling average of daily deaths nationwide.

As of Sunday morning, the average number of daily deaths stood at 673.6 (July 5-July 11). As of today, with yesterday's 483 figured in, the 7-day average rose to 711.4 deaths per day over the past seven days!

That happened because yesterday's number—483—replaced a much smaller number—217—from the previous Sunday. At any rate, and unambiguously, we've recorded a daily average of 711.4 deaths nationwide over the past seven days.

In the last seven days of June, the average number of daily deaths stood at a much lower 538.7 (June 24-June 30). Over the past week, the average has steadily been going up, and will likely continue to do so.

This very morning, over at Slate, Loofbourow announced her longing for a better discourse. We'll be discussing impediments to that better discourse all week.

All week, we'll be discussing the hard parts. Today, we'll start with the math.

"Math is hard," Talking Barbie once famously said. Talking Ken, her slacker consort, didn't challenge his misshapen companion's claim.

In truth, math is routinely very hard for the stars of cable news. More specifically, reporting statistics seems to be hard for this narrative-driven assemblage.

Let's discuss the ways they do, and the ways they don't, report coronavirus deaths. Also, let's do a quick drive-by on current reporting of "cases."

On anti-Trump cable, one prime storyline goes like this: The United States is number one in the world, compared to all other nations, on coronavirus deaths.

That's technically accurate, but only if you don't adjust for size of population.

Our apparently impaired president, Donald J. Trump, doesn't adjust for population when he says we've done the most testing in the world. Our cable stars—people like Anderson Cooper and Rachel Maddow—don't adjust for population when they hand you the storyline in which the United States leads all nations in deaths.

In these ways, two rival tribes are pleasured with rival Storyline. In the process, the three national figures we've named are behaving in a way which justifies Barbie's extremely frank statement.

How should coronavirus deaths be reported? If we're comparing the United States to other nations, or even to the E.U., we'll suggest two major ways:

You can report the total number of coronavirus deaths to date: You can report the total number of deaths in various countries to date! That said, it makes no sense to do this unless you adjust for size of population—and if you do that, the United States isn't number one, although it may be on some glorious future day.

If you adjust for population, we simply aren't number one in total deaths to date. For current data on deaths to date, see yesterday's report.

That's one way to report such deaths. Another way would be this:

You can report the current average number of daily deaths: You can report the current average number of daily deaths! This statistic wouldn't show how many people have died overall. Instead, and possibly more to the point, it would show how many people are dying right now, on a daily basis.

You can report the current average number of daily deaths! In graphic form, Kevin Drum does this on a daily basis, though only with respect to eight countries other than the United States.

Here again, these comparisons only make sense if you adjust for size of population. Drum's daily graphic does.

Anderson Cooper could do this too! And by the way—this would be an interesting, journalistically respectable way to show how badly our nation has done at defeating the virus, as compared to nations around the world.

Needless to say, Cooper doesn't do this. We can think of two principal reasons:

Number one, math is hard, just as Barbie said. It's easier not to bother with this, assuming it has even occurred to Cooper's staff to present such important data.

Number two, Cooper seems to be happy with pure Storyline (and he's a bit of a slacker). He simply says we're worst in the world, and his daily effort is done.

In a slightly different world, people would be very unhappy with people like Cooper and Maddow. People would insist on the delivery of journalistically respectable information, not on pure Storyline.

In our world, the professors abandoned the discourse a long time ago. They never say boo about matters like this, and the journalists routinely are clowns.

How does our floundering nation stand, as compared to other nations, when it comes to current daily deaths? As you can see from Drum's daily graphic, we're roughly even with the U.K. and Sweden; we're doing substantially better than Mexico.

That said, such well-known countries as Germany, France and Italy have virtually ended daily deaths, with Canada seeming to close in on that goal. We're considering the eight other countries Drum reviews, but many other developed nations have wrestled these deaths to the ground.

If a cable star like Cooper would get off his multimillionaire corporate asp, he could compile an array of such statistics, then show them to the American people. Such data would let his viewers see how pathetic our national performance has been, right to the present day.

That said, Donald J. Trump's former caddie is a journalistic slacker. He's content to hand you Storyline, then return to one of the several mansions he's purchased with large corporate cash.

Concerning "cases," let us quickly refer you to the featured report atop page A1 of today's New York Times. Hard-copy triple headline included, that news report starts like this:
15,000 NEW CASES IN FLORIDA IN DAY BREAK A RECORD

SURPASSING NEW YORK

Dozens of States Averse to Restrictions See Sharp Surge

Florida on Sunday reported the highest single-day total of new coronavirus cases by any state since the start of the pandemic
, with more than 15,000 new infections, eclipsing the previous high of 12,274 recorded in New York on April 4 amid the worst of its outbreak.

The number reflects both increased testing and a surge in transmission of the virus that has strained hospitals, led to shortages in a key antiviral drug and amplified fears about the pace the state lifted restrictions on movement and commerce. And it is a new red mark on the nation’s floundering efforts to combat the virus.
The top two headlines produce excitement; they also advance Storyline. In those two headlines, as in that opening paragraph, we're told that Florida reported a higher number of new "cases" yesterday than the hard-hit state of New York ever did!

That statement is technically accurate. But in paragraph 2, we're told that the Florida number reflects "increased testing" along with a surge in transmissions. That tells us that we're comparing a big bag of apples to a smaller basket of oranges when we compare Florida's (recorded) new cases yesterday to the state of New York's (recorded) new cases way back when testing was much more limited.

"Cases" is a shaky statistic, especially when used to make comparisons over substantial amounts of time. Here's why:

No one knows how many "new infections" really occurred in Florida yesterday. The number the Times reported is simply the number that was identified by an official test.

How much less testing was going on back in April, when the state of New York was the epicenter of the pandemic? We don't have the slightest idea, and the Times' comparison doesn't make a huge amount of sense unless you know such things.

At least in theory, everyone long for better discourse. By way of contrast, what we're handed tends to be Storyline.

Today, we've noted that basic statistics, a branch of math, can be very hard. Tomorrow, it's on to a point we first made in 1999:

Paraphrase can be wondrously easy, quotation amazingly hard.

Tomorrow: Who needs quotation?

The size of those two states: In this, as in so many situations, comparing "cases" state-to-state doesn't really make much sense unless you adjust for population.

In this instance, Florida's population seems to be a little more than ten percent larger than that of the state of New York. By the norms of modern discourse, that means they're exactly the same!

32 comments:

  1. I reckon, you, dear Bob, and your dembot friend Kevin, have become the world's best experts on, and the most dedicated watchers of the world's most useless statistics.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ma0 ma0 * ,!, ,!,

      Delete


    2. HOW I GOT MY HUSBAND BACK WITH THE HELP OF PRIEST WISDOM CONTACT ON WHATS_APP NUMBER +2348124644470

      This is my testimony about the good work of priest wisdom who help me.... I'm Ann Earnis from north Carolina USA. And am sorry for putting this on net but i will have to, by this world best spell caster that brought back my husband who left me out for past 3 years, i eventually met this man on a blog site posting by one of is client for help, i explained everything to him and he told me about a spell caster that he had heard about and he gave me an email address to write to the spell caster to tell him my problems. In just 1 days, my husband was back to me. I just want to say thank you to this truthful and sincere spell caster, sir all you told me have come to pass and thank you sir. Please I want to tell everyone who is looking for any solution to their problem, I advise you to kindly consult this spell caster, he is real,he is powerful and whatever the spell caster tells is what will happen, because all what the spell caster told me came to pass. You can kindly contact him on: his email address is supernaturalspell1@gmail.com or directly on whats-app +2348124644470  or   https://supernaturalspell21.blogspot.com/  
































      HOW I GOT MY HUSBAND BACK WITH THE HELP OF PRIEST WISDOM CONTACT ON WHATS_APP NUMBER +2348124644470

      This is my testimony about the good work of priest wisdom who help me.... I'm Ann Earnis from north Carolina USA. And am sorry for putting this on net but i will have to, by this world best spell caster that brought back my husband who left me out for past 3 years, i eventually met this man on a blog site posting by one of is client for help, i explained everything to him and he told me about a spell caster that he had heard about and he gave me an email address to write to the spell caster to tell him my problems. In just 1 days, my husband was back to me. I just want to say thank you to this truthful and sincere spell caster, sir all you told me have come to pass and thank you sir. Please I want to tell everyone who is looking for any solution to their problem, I advise you to kindly consult this spell caster, he is real,he is powerful and whatever the spell caster tells is what will happen, because all what the spell caster told me came to pass. You can kindly contact him on: his email address is supernaturalspell1@gmail.com or directly on whats-app +2348124644470  or   https://supernaturalspell21.blogspot.com/  



      ............

      Delete
    3. Hello everyone i am from USA i am here to give my testimony about an herbal doctor called Dr,olu I was heartbroken because i had very small penis,not nice to satisfy a woman, i have been in so many relationship, but cut off because of my situation, i have used so many product which doctors prescribe for me, but could not offer me the help i searched for. i saw some few comments on the internet about this specialist called Dr,OLU and decided to email him on his email i saw on the internet,(drolusolutionhome@gmail.com ) so I decided to give his herbal product a try. i emailed him and he got back to me, he gave me some comforting words with his herbal product for Penis Enlargement, Within three weeks of me use it, i began to feel the enlargement, " and now it just 4 weeks of using his products my penis is about 8 inches longer, and i had to settle thing out with my ex girlfriend , i was surprised when she said that she is satisfied with my performance in bed and i now have a large penis.thanks to DR OLU for is herbal product. you can also reach him with emsil drolusolutionhome@gmail.com though is..number WHATASPP him today on this number [ +2348140654426 ]

      Delete
    4. A GREAT SPELL CASTER (DR. EMU) THAT HELP ME BRING BACK MY EX GIRLFRIEND.
      Am so happy to testify about a great spell caster that helped me when all hope was lost for me to unite with my ex-girlfriend that I love so much. I had a girlfriend that love me so much but something terrible happen to our relationship one afternoon when her friend that was always trying to get to me was trying to force me to make love to her just because she was been jealous of her friend that i was dating and on the scene my girlfriend just walk in and she thought we had something special doing together, i tried to explain things to her that her friend always do this whenever she is not with me and i always refuse her but i never told her because i did not want the both of them to be enemies to each other but she never believed me. She broke up with me and I tried times without numbers to make her believe me but she never believed me until one day i heard about the DR. EMU and I emailed him and he replied to me so kindly and helped me get back my lovely relationship that was already gone for two months.
      Email him at: Emutemple@gmail.com
      Call or Whats-app him: +2347012841542

      Delete
  2. Here, dear Bob, for your hobby:

    https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/

    ReplyDelete
  3. I believe Somerby may be somehow comforted by reducing a scary virus pandemic into sterile numbers. You can do math with numbers, you are their master. Not so with deaths.

    ReplyDelete
  4. "That's technically accurate, but only if you don't adjust for size of population."

    How do you think your loved one might feel if his or her death were reduced from one whole human death to some small percentage of a death? Would it make them feel remembered, important to those left behind? Somerby always ignores that these are people we are talking about, not big numbers needing to be reduced to smaller ones, to blunt the loss and make us seem like a better country.

    My relatives are people. My loved ones and friends are people too. They aren't adjusted people based on population size. If they die, I will miss them more because I knew them, not less because Somerby thinks we need to divide by total population size to understand how important they are.

    This obsession of Somerby's is starting to make me wonder about his sanity.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Somerby is a hard core malevolent Trumptard who claims to be a liberal. That should tell you all you need to know about his sanity

      Delete
  5. "In these ways, two rival tribes are pleasured with rival Storyline. "

    Yay, yay, yay, yay, Somerby finally acknowledge that they aren't perfect over at Fox either.

    ReplyDelete
  6. "In our world, the professors abandoned the discourse a long time ago. They never say boo about matters like this, and the journalists routinely are clowns."

    No, Somerby, the professors are too busy working on vaccines and treatments, publishing papers in medical and public health journals that spread ideas about how to address the pandemic to the front lines in hospitals. In other words, they are too busy doing their jobs, and a good thing too, if we want to get out of this situation alive.

    Cooper is doing his job too. He is not confusing people with graphs and statistics but telling them the bottom line. We are doing badly and need to get our act together.

    Today's essay is filled with the phrase "That is technically correct, but...". This means that Somerby isn't complaining about inaccuracies but about the choices media professionals have made about how to present information to a public that varies greatly in its ability to absorb technical information. Somerby wants more stats, more charts. That isn't going to help the average person understand why they have to keep wearing masks and avoiding crowds. The public needs to be told the bottom line -- stay at home, wear your mask, wash your hands -- not given charts that show that we may be bad but we aren't as bad as that ratty Belgium. Would Somerby present a bunch of charts and graphs to his fourth graders? If the answer to that is yes, it is no wonder he left teaching. Communicators always need to consider their audience.

    Somerby seems to have lost any hold on common sense. I suspect he is more upset about the virus than he wants to let on. Instead of writing this same essay tomorrow, perhaps he should spend some time listening to his pear tree.

    ReplyDelete
  7. I am waiting to see whether Somerby follows the White House talking points and attacks Fauci. If he does, it will pretty much prove my point about the conservative memes being echoed here. (His generic attack on all the professors doesn't count.)

    ReplyDelete
  8. "Today, we've noted that basic statistics, a branch of math, can be very hard. "

    Statistics are the easiest math you can do in college. It requires nothing more than high school math to understand. The catch is that you actually need to study it -- which Somerby clearly has never done. He thinks means and graphs are all there is to statistics. He makes basic mistakes all the time, while chiding newspapers for choices that have nothing to do with stats at all (all those "technically accurate" statements that are accurate, if displeasing to Somerby). If Somerby had taken stats in college, he might have more respect for both numbers and journalists.

    Somerby is proving that anyone can appear to be pseudo-expert just by criticizing others, since it takes actual expertise to see the flaws in the criticism and most people don't have that either. Somerby is a fraud. Even David in Cal (who plays an actuary in comments) knows more than Somerby does. Every psychology major (student, not graduate) has taken basic statistics and knows more about this than Somerby does. Many business majors and most economics majors know more than Somerby does about stats. The poli sci majors who study polling know more about stats than Somerby, and so do the sociology majors who study survey methods. Somerby is a one-trick pony, going on and on about adjusting for population size, while never thinking about what the numbers mean -- the most basic question of anyone working with numbers. Because Somerby only wants to embarrass journalists and yell about fake news, and the numbers mean nothing whatsoever to him, not even that the dead are piling up while our president plays golf. And he has the nerve to call Cooper a caddie! One cannot be both a slacker and a caddie, because those bags are heavy. Somerby -- start carrying the weight of grief that the rest of us are struggling with, and acknowledge that those numbers represent actual human beings who have passed away in insupportable numbers, too high to measure for those of us who knew the dead.

    ReplyDelete
  9. "How much less testing was going on back in April, when the state of New York was the epicenter of the pandemic? We don't have the slightest idea, and the Times' comparison doesn't make a huge amount of sense unless you know such things."

    If you knew the answer to this, would it make the pandemic any less severe?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This is Somerby's repetition of the right-wing meme that it is testing that is making the cases go up, not spread of the virus. The implication is that the states are doing this testing to make Trump look bad, by making the virus appear worse than it is.

      But remember that Somerby never states anything definitively. He is implying this, so he has plausible deniability as a liberal. Liberals don't care about how much testing inflates overall numbers. They think of more testing as providing a more accurate estimate of virus spread, a good thing, and a means to control the virus, not a means to embarrass the president. So pointing out how much testing was done in NY compared to FL is irrelevant to liberals but very important to conservatives who have a different use for the numbers.

      Delete
    2. The point is that DeSantis used to brag about how much less virus FL had compared to NYC. Somerby appears to be hinting that FL only has more virus now because of increased testing, so Somerby is backing up DeSantis.

      Delete
  10. "President Trump retweeted a claim by game show host Chuck Woolery that the CDC, the media, the Democratic party, and “most” doctors are “lying” about the coronavirus."

    ReplyDelete
  11. “If you adjust for population, we simply aren't number one in total deaths to date.”

    This statement is absurd. Of course we are number one in total deaths to date. That is simply a statistical fact.

    We are not number one in deaths per million.

    But that is a different statistical measure.

    Perhaps Somerby means it is misleading to cite total deaths to date. Even if you accept that premise, it is no less misleading to cite deaths per million. This stat is determined by an array of factors: age of population, population density, mitigation efforts, etc. A country having a higher per capita death rate isn’t necessarily doing a worse job than one with a lower rate.

    And, since Somerby mentioned the EU:

    Cases per million, EU: 2887
    Cases per million, US: 9984

    Deaths per million, EU: 301
    Deaths per million, US: 416

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. mh, you're stretching, when you write, "it is no less misleading to cite deaths per million. This stat is determined by an array of factors: age of population, population density, mitigation efforts, etc. A country having a higher per capita death rate isn’t necessarily doing a worse job than one with a lower rate."

      As you point out, deaths per million is an imperfect basis for comparison. However, it's a lot more meaningful than total number of deaths.

      Delete
    2. "it's a lot more meaningful than total number of deaths"

      No it is not unless it is given context. mh gave it context, showing the US to be worse than the EU. The US actually occupies 8 out of the 10 worst deaths per million locations in the world. You can not compare US overall deaths per million to smaller less densely populated countries - that is meaningless. When you compare areas of similar size and population density, the US is by far the worst. By a huge margin. You argue in bad faith as if it were a religion.

      Delete
  12. Example 1:
    Town A has population of 100.
    28 people died. That is 28% of the total population.

    Town B has population of 50.
    25 people died. That is 50% of the total population.

    28>25, but 28%<50%.

    Somerby says you should talk about the percentages, not the number of deaths.

    Looking at another case:
    Town A loses 28 people.
    Town B loses 14 people.

    Both towns lost 28% of their population. Somerby’s view leads you to conclude that Town A’s 28 deaths were equivalent to Town B’s 14 deaths. Is that how most people would think about it?

    Example 2:
    A tornado kills 100 people in Town X.
    Newspaper says: “greatest loss of life from a natural disaster in town’s history.”
    But Somerby says: “but in the great flood of 1927, 50 people lost their life. The town’s population then was 5000, today it is 60000. So the loss was greater in 1927.”

    Again, is this how people normally think about this sort of thing?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Is that how most people would think about it?"

      Why, yes, if they are comparing the two towns, in terms of mortality. Assuming they are not idiots.

      And how should they think about it, in your opinion?

      Delete
    2. No, none of these cases is how people think about these things. mh has done a good job of showing the problems with Somerby's argument.

      How do people think about these things? There is some evidence that past low numbers and small groups, people just think about the numbers as big versus little, smaller than and larger than. No one is going to figure out whether 28% of 53,278 is bigger than 14% of 87,542 and which city has the worst covid. That's why, when Cooper or someone else, talks about the virus, it is better for them to say that the virus is getting worse and people need to wear their masks, or deaths are higher than for any previous natural disaster, and not cite the actual statistics where as percentages or death rates or cumulative totals. Notice Mao's response. People will pretend to understand this stuff, but unless it changes their behavior, the report isn't doing its job -- helping people decide to wear their masks, stay at home, and wash those hands. Expressing these numbers in ways that minimizes the danger to people is irresponsible, no matter what is "technically accurate" or actually accurate or consistent with Somerby's whims.

      Delete
  13. “How much less testing was going on back in April, when the state of New York was the epicenter of the pandemic? We don't have the slightest idea, and the Times' comparison doesn't make a huge amount of sense unless you know such things.”

    This data can be found at the Covid tracking project (https://covidtracking.com/). There is a separate page for each state.

    It turns out that Florida administered 98,708 tests on July 12. On April 4, during the height of its outbreak, New York administered 23,101 tests. Of course, it’s likely that back then tests were given only to people showing symptoms, thus the percentage of positive tests would have been much higher. You can also see that for July 12, New York gave 62,418 new tests, with only 677 new cases.

    At any rate, Somerby chastises the story for comparing apples to oranges, but the story acknowledges this:

    “Some of the increase in cases reflects the dramatic increase in testing; Florida is testing several times the number of people that New York was at the height of its crisis. The spread of the disease amid the Florida sun does not play out with the same dread as it did in crowded city streets in New York. Hospitals are better supplied and somewhat more prepared to treat patients than they were in March and April. And while the daily death toll in Florida climbed to a high last week, it remains far below the levels that New York suffered, at least for now.”

    ReplyDelete
  14. "We don't have the slightest idea"

    Truer words were never written by TDH

    ReplyDelete
  15. HOW I GOT MY HUSBAND BACK WITH THE HELP OF PRIEST WISDOM CONTACT ON WHATS_APP NUMBER +2348124644470

    This is my testimony about the good work of priest wisdom who help me.... I'm Ann Earnis from north Carolina USA. And am sorry for putting this on net but i will have to, by this world best spell caster that brought back my husband who left me out for past 3 years, i eventually met this man on a blog site posting by one of is client for help, i explained everything to him and he told me about a spell caster that he had heard about and he gave me an email address to write to the spell caster to tell him my problems. In just 1 days, my husband was back to me. I just want to say thank you to this truthful and sincere spell caster, sir all you told me have come to pass and thank you sir. Please I want to tell everyone who is looking for any solution to their problem, I advise you to kindly consult this spell caster, he is real,he is powerful and whatever the spell caster tells is what will happen, because all what the spell caster told me came to pass. You can kindly contact him on: his email address is supernaturalspell1@gmail.com or directly on whats-app +2348124644470  or   https://supernaturalspell21.blogspot.com/  

    ReplyDelete
  16. Hello everyone i want to testify of the great and powerful spell caster named Priest Ade who brought back my ex who left me and got engaged to another girl,We where happy together when all of a sudden he just change he used to call me every morning and and night before going to bed but all that stopped when i call him he yell at me and told me he didn't want to have anything to do with me anymore i was so sad and confused i didn't know what to do then i went online to search on how to get back my ex then i found an article where someone was talking about how the great and powerful Priest Ade helped her and she left his email address i took it and contacted him i told him my problem he only smiled and told me to relax everything will be OK i did everything he asked me to do and he assured me that after 24hrs he will be back,To my greatest surprise the next morning it was my boyfriend he came back knelling and begging for me to accept him back now we are so happy together he can also help you contact him

    ancientspiritspellcast@yahoo.com or ancientspiritspellcast@gmail.com 

    https://priestade.blogspot.com

    View more on YouTube: https://youtu.be/jWta3jLP_fo

    WhatsApp +2347059715465

    ReplyDelete
  17. EFFECTIVE LOVE SPELL TO GET EX HUSBAND/BOYFRIEND OR EX WIFE/GIRLFRIEND AND CURE HERPES AND INFERTILITY THAT WORKS WITHIN 24 HOURS.

    Contact Dr. Odunga at odungaspelltemple@gmail.com OR Whats App/CALL +2348167159012

    I got my ex husband back to me and also got fertile and gave birth to twin girls after 12 years of marriage.
    When I came online last year, I saw a testimony about Doctor ODUNGA and how he has been helping people with marriage issues and I decided to contact him. We spoke on email at odungaspelltemple@gmail.com and later he gave me his WhatsApp number which is +2348167159012. He assured me he would help me get my ex husband back after 3 years of no contact. Doctor Odunga is the best spell caster I must say. My husband called me after 24 hours of contact. The third day, I received natural herbs for fertility and after using it, I became fertile and conceived. I and my husband reconnected, had sex and I was pregnant. Presently I am happy to say I am the mother of twin girls and this is ALL THANKS TO DOCTOR ODUNGA. I came online to say this If you need help, I believe you are saved with this man.

    Contact his email at odungaspelltemple@gmail.com

    OR Whats App/Call +2348167159012 and you too will give a testimony too to help others

    ReplyDelete
  18. EFFECTIVE LOVE SPELL TO GET EX HUSBAND/BOYFRIEND OR EX WIFE/GIRLFRIEND AND CURE HERPES AND INFERTILITY THAT WORKS WITHIN 24 HOURS.

    Contact Dr. Odunga at odungaspelltemple@gmail.com OR Whats App/CALL +2348167159012

    I got my ex husband back to me and also got fertile and gave birth to twin girls after 12 years of marriage.
    When I came online last year, I saw a testimony about Doctor ODUNGA and how he has been helping people with marriage issues and I decided to contact him. We spoke on email at odungaspelltemple@gmail.com and later he gave me his WhatsApp number which is +2348167159012. He assured me he would help me get my ex husband back after 3 years of no contact. Doctor Odunga is the best spell caster I must say. My husband called me after 24 hours of contact. The third day, I received natural herbs for fertility and after using it, I became fertile and conceived. I and my husband reconnected, had sex and I was pregnant. Presently I am happy to say I am the mother of twin girls and this is ALL THANKS TO DOCTOR ODUNGA. I came online to say this If you need help, I believe you are saved with this man.

    Contact his email at odungaspelltemple@gmail.com

    OR Whats App/Call +2348167159012 and you too will give a testimony too to help others

    ReplyDelete