HEARING OTHERS: Does pro-Palestinian mean antisemitic?

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 21, 2023

When do we start calling names? Our own blue tribe has faced an obvious analytical challenge in these modern and perhaps final days.

That challenge centers on a key question: When do we start calling names?

The problem breaks down like this:

Rather plainly, no one else is ever as intellectually brilliant, or as morally pure, as we blue tribe members are. 

Basically, there's no chance that those who disagree with our instincts or our views could ever turn out to be right. This forces us to assess the motives of such people, or their inner moral states. The question we're stuck with turns into this:

Why do the others insist on adopting views which are so plainly wrong?

Understandably, we often adopt the simplest answer to that age-old question. The others, who have now become Others, are racist / sexist / homophobic / transphobic / just deeply morally wrong.

The others fall into a certain basket. They're deplorable, even irredeemable. 

So it often has gone. And as our perfect insight continues to function in the case of the Israel-Hamas war, some of us have reached similar conclusions concerning those who refuse to share our own unassailable assessments.

We can't imagine what they're thinking! A certain assumption about such people may rapidly follow from there.

No one could blame our blue tribe stars for reaching such obvious judgments. And sure enough:

Especially on some major "cable news" programs, some of our stars have been especially bewildered by the unsupportable, inexplicable views of These College Students Today.

Some of these students—way too many of these students!—have been adopting a "pro-Palestinian" view! Most cable news stars don't share those views. Indeed, they seem to be completely bewildered by the very existence of these countervailing views.

How in the world could a college student hold a different view from our own? This seems to be the question driving some of the blue cable stars.

Some major news orgs have offered reports which attempt to unpack this conundrum. To their credit, Hartocollis and Saul authored one such effort in the November 11 New York Times.

For the record, we don't think their effort was perfect. For now, their article started like this, principal headlines included:

After Antisemitic Attacks, Colleges Debate What Kind of Speech Is Out of Bounds

In the days after the Hamas attack on Israel, Max Strozenberg, a first-year student at Northwestern University, experienced a couple of jarring incidents.

Walking into his dorm, he was startled to see a poster calling Gaza a “modern-day concentration camp” pinned to a bulletin board next to Halloween ghosts and pumpkins.

At a pro-Palestinian rally, he heard students shouting, “Hey, Schill, what do you say, how many kids did you kill today,” an echo of a chant from the anti-Vietnam War movement, now directed at Northwestern’s president, Michael H. Schill, who is Jewish.

Mr. Strozenberg’s paternal grandparents escaped the Nazis just before other family members were taken to the concentration camps. Now, he finds himself in an eerie time warp, resisting his grandmother’s pleas to take off the small star of David that he wears around his neck.

It’s not that he is feeling safe—just defiant. The mood on campus these days, he said, “is not pro-Palestinian, it’s antisemitic.”

Max Strozenberg is a good, decent person. He's also a college freshman.

He heard a certain number of students engaged in a certain chant and he seems to have interpreted it in a certain way. 

He thought the incident was "jarring." In our view, there's no obvious reason why he shouldn't have reacted that way.

As a point of personal privilege, do you mind if we let our thoughts drift back to the days of the Vietnam War? We ourselves were college students then, and other students around the nation frequently offered this chant:

Hey, hey, LBJ,
How many kids did you kill today?

Presumably, that's the "chant from the anti-Vietnam War movement" to which the reporters refer. It was a tough and politically divisive chant then, but it made a lot more sense than the updated chant Strozenberg heard at Northwestern.

Michael H. Schill is Northwestern’s president. We'll assume he's a good, decent person.

Back in the day, "LBJ" was, in fact, the commander in chief of the American military. He was directly responsible for the military actions which led to a gigantic number of civilian deaths during the long-running Vietnam War.

In their report, Hartocollis and Saul don't attempt to explain the theory according to which Michael Schill stands accused of killing babies today, presumably in Gaza. Their updated chant strikes us as possibly being a tiny bit dumb—but then, did we mention the fact that it was a bunch of college students who were involved in the chant?

Max Strozenberg is a good, decent person? So, we'll hasten to assume, is Anna Babboni, a senior at Scripps College in Claremont, Calif.

Like Nestor addressing Diomedes not far from the towering walls of Troy, Babboni has several years on her freshman contemporary at Northwestern half a world away. That said, she too is cited in this Times report, and this is what she said:

Pro-Palestinian supporters are quick to push back, asking whether any criticism of Israel and Zionism is acceptable.

They say that the cries of antisemitism are an attempt to stifle speech and divert attention from a 16-year blockade of Gaza by Israel, backed by Egypt, that has devastated the lives of Palestinians. They point to the uprooting of 700,000 people during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. And they rail against Israel’s current invasion of Gaza, which has killed more than 10,000 people, according to the Gazan health ministry.

“We stand staunchly against all forms of racism and bigotry,” said Anna Babboni, a senior at Scripps College in Claremont, Calif., and one of the leaders of the local chapter of Students for Justice in Palestine.

Ms. Babboni said her group is not antisemitic, but it is anti-Zionist...

In the language of this report, Babboni actually is "pro-Palestinian." Staunchly, she says her pro-Palestinian advocacy group isn't antisemitic.

It almost sounds like she might have said that her group opposes antisemitism. At any rate, she seems to have cited pieces of history, and at least one ongoing action, in an effort to explain her point of view.

At this point, Hartocollis and Saul author a passage in which we think they make an error of omission. That said, their article starts to suggest the possibility that students who actually are "pro-Palestinian" may have arguments to make on behalf of their stance!

If so, that doesn't mean that it isn't dumb to be chanting the chant that Strozenberg heard at Northwestern. It doesn't mean that a student like Strozenberg has to end up agreeing with their overall point of view.

It doesn't mean that those students are "right." It does make us wonder about the cable stars who can't seem to hear the various things Babboni and others have said.

Especially at times like these, hearing the voices of others can be very hard. By way of contrast, attacking others as racist is easy. 

Our tribe has leaned in the latter direction over the past quite a few years, and it seems to us that we've hurt progressive interests as we've insisted on adopting that stance.

Is Anna Babboni a food, decent person? How about Max Strozenberg? Is he good and decent too?

More generally, is it even possible that two people, each of whom is good and decent, could actually disagree about some deeply important matter? In recent years, our own blue tribe has had an increasingly difficult time with an age-old question like that.

We've had trouble hearing the voices of others. Tomorrow, we'll start with the voice of a college student whose reactions will strike most people as being quite hard to defend.

Tomorrow: Graduate student at Penn praises "glorious" Hamas attack


75 comments:

  1. "Does pro-Palestinian mean antisemitic?"

    Absolutely it does. Because Palestinians have been antisemitic since before Israel was established. Supporting Palestinians means supporting their antisemitism and unending violence toward Israel and the Jews who formed it.

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    1. Your conclusion is invalid because your premises are false.

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    2. Supporting Hamas is supporting genocide. Hamas explicitly calls for killing every Jew. And, it is not just talk:They do indeed kill every anew they can.

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    3. Above comment from David in Cal

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    4. 1:19 good to know, I don’t respond to trolls like him.

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    5. Most Jews live in America, most Jews in America and even a significant amount in Israel, are opposed to Israel’s apartheid and violence towards Palestinians; following the incoherent logic of the original comment, Jews are the worst anti-Semites, which is utter nonsense.

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    6. Jews are also opposed to Palestinian violence and running out of patience with them.

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    7. Jews want to live in peace.

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    8. Do most Americans understand why terrorists flew planes into the twin towers in NYC on 9/11/2001? It was to object to the presence of American military forces in the Middle East. Attacking Israel is a part of this larger effort to expell the US from involvement in the Middle East.

      Jihadists and Hamas are brothers. Their methods and their goals are the same. Perpetrate violence on innocents, then blame the West for making them do those horrible things, complaining that Israel/the US do not belong in Arab/Muslim territories. The goal is not a home state for Palistinians. It is a Caliphate operating under Shari'a law.

      Somerby wants to make this about listening to a laundry-list of Palestinian grievances, Gazan suffering. But who is inflicting this and why haven't Palestinians long ago accepted their territory and begun building a nation? That is not what they want. They want Israel gone, just as other Arabs want the US gone, so that they can pursue their own fantasies of an Islamic empire untainted by modern or Western influences. Palestinians will continue to suffer until Arabs back off their unachievable demands and stop attacking those who are not like them.

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    9. Why should the US maintain forces in the Middle East? Is it OK if Middle Eastern powers maintain forces in the Western Hemisphere?

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    10. To protect Israel and support NATO. They are a legacy of WWII. More recently it is also to combat terrorism and keep peace between Sunnis and Shiites.

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    11. Middle Eastern power is an oxymoron.

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  2. "Our own blue tribe has faced an obvious analytical challenge in these modern and perhaps final days."

    What kind of nihilistic goop is this? Is Somerby now channeling end-timers in an oblique reference to the end times? What does he mean by "final days"? Nothing rational, unless he is simply talking about the last months of 2023.

    When he throws in cryptic nonsense like that, he makes himself sound like a first-class bozo.

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  3. "Rather plainly, no one else is ever as intellectually brilliant, or as morally pure, as we blue tribe members are."

    Given that there are only two tribes in Somerby's world, what can he mean by "no one else"? Clearly the so-called red tribe are out of their tiny little minds, so that doesn't make it difficult to be more brilliant and more moral than they are. Is Somerby seriously going to suggest we are going around measuring ourselves against Mike Johnson or Elon Musk? This is Somerby's formulation and he sounds like an ass making it.

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    1. Rather plainly, Somerby is not intellectually brilliant or morally pure. Whether anyone else is, remains to be seen.

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    2. Somerby is a good, decent person.

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  4. "Basically, there's no chance that those who disagree with our instincts or our views could ever turn out to be right. "

    The goal of life is not to be right. It is to survive and to find some measure of happiness and success at achieving better goals than rightness, such as supporting our families or doing good work or helping others. Here Somerby reveals the smallness of his vision for what constitutes a good life.

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    Replies
    1. Yeah, who needs rightness?

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    2. Finding truth is more important than being right, which implies a competition with someone else who is wrong.

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    3. A great philosopher, Pontius Pilatus, asked, “What is truth?”

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  5. "Their updated chant strikes us as possibly being a tiny bit dumb"

    Well, yes, possibly. But to be certain you might want to ask that group of students why they accuse Michael Schill of killing kids.

    Otherwise, your calling them dumb is just a smear.

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    1. How many children did Michael Schill kill?

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    2. Well, the Daily Northwestern reports that he is actively suppressing anti-Zionist protests. Which means that he is complicit in what many perceive as a genocide.

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    3. Doesn't that sound silly as you type your words?

      The job of a college administrator is to suppress student protests, whether they are about lack of parking or tuition hikes or some political issue. That isn't anywhere close to committing genocide.

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    4. No, the job of a college administrator is not to suppress student protests. Also, not to mischaracterize the essence of those protests. Especially when the protests in question are against an ongoing genocide (as perceived by most people on this planet).

      Also, I didn't say that Michael Schill is committing a genocide. I said he is, arguably, complicit. Protest slogans and chants do present exaggerated claims; that's perfectly normal, expected.

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    5. Please specify how Schill is "complicit". And with what exactly. Is he killing babies? Is he killing anyone? And yes, the job of a college administrator is to keep peace on campus. He is responsible for the students, not for world peace.

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    6. I already addressed all that, Corby. Learn to read.

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    7. No, uou made unsupported assertions.

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    8. 10:55 provides some context that Somerby obscured since it cuts against his claim.

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  6. "The others fall into a certain basket. They're deplorable, even irredeemable. "

    This certainly applies to Trump. Wouldn't you say that someone who has gone straight down hill, the way Trump has, could be called irredeemable? Is there any chance he will reform before he does more damage in 2024? I would say not.

    If there is one guy the term "irredeemable" applies to, isn't it possible there could be others? Or is Somerby going to make some sappy religious statement, such as that it is for God to judge, not we pitiful humans?

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  7. Does Somerby think it is OK to ascribe the actions of Israeli military to a university administrator simply because both are Jewish? That sounds like antisemitism to me.

    The chant is also dumb because LBJ was directly responsible for military actions in vietnam, as commander in chief, but this guy at Northwestern is clearly not in charge of anything happening in Israel.

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  8. I am tired of Somerby calling various people good and decent when he hasn't got a clue what kind of people they are. There are some people who are not good and decent in our world. Listening to them only confirms that impression. Calling such people good and decent helps nothing except to confuse matters.

    I suspect that Somerby himself is neither good nor decent. I suspect that if he thought he could get away with it, he might call Trump good and decent too, when he obviously is not. Neither is Melania. And not because they are red tribe members but because they are crappy excuses for human beings. It is hard for me to see how Somerby, who will call unknown people good and decent without knowing them, wouldn't also call an obviously evil and indecent person like Trump "good and decent" just so that he can call liberals (our blue tribe members) awful for having better morals than a tin can.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. At a recent rally Trump yammered on about the pee tape, claiming Melania told him she was not worried about the pee tape because she knows he’s a germaphobe and wouldn’t engage in such activity; yet Trump had unprotected sex with a porn star while Melania was pregnant.

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    2. Yes, Trump still lies.

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  9. The comments here serve to exemplify Somerby’s point: We have a hard time hearing the voices of the Others; it’s much easier to call Them names.

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    1. Dogface, as usual, comes here to attack commenters, not to discuss anything Somerby says.

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    2. Actually, I’m summarizing Somerby’s point and suggesting that comments here tend to prove that point.

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    3. No one said Somerby doesn’t attack his readers. It is his raison d’etre.

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    4. A further point Somerby makes is that the failure of our side to hear the voices of the Others may lead to our electoral defeat.

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    5. Somerby's bigger problem is that some people are talking/ writing about what they've heard the Others say.

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    6. Dogface, we’ve been winning elections.

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    7. 12:09,
      Somerby thinks reporting what the Others say may lead to our electoral defeat. I'm not so sure.

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    8. 12:13 - Objectively, Trump is the worst candidate ever. Yet we’re just one and one against him - and right now, we’re behind.

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    9. No, we’re not. Another poll is out today showing Biden ahead. One poll doesn’t predict the outcome of an election a year away, doofus.

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    10. I mean, Trump incited a mob to rampage through the Capitol - yet he’s leading in the polls. He was found liable for fraud - yet he’s leading in the polls. He was found liable for sexually assaulting a woman - yet he’s leading in the polls. If we have trouble beating a treasonous, con man rapist, perhaps we should question our methods.

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    11. Check out the polls at 538.

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    12. Dogface George,
      It's impolite to point out the country was built on white supremacy and bigotry, so I'm guessing the reason Trump is leading in some polls is due to sun spots and solar flares.

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    13. Or stick your head in the sand if you want.

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    14. Dogface, look at recent elections not polls. People may not want an old guy like Biden but that doesn’t mean Trump is winning.

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    15. The first rule of talking to the Others, is you don't talk about talking to the Others.

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    16. Polls have issues with reliability and accuracy, particularly this far out from an election; taking the current polls at face value, they indicate that there is a lack of enthusiasm for Biden, whereas support for Trump is merely holding steady, not growing.

      Based on the polling, Biden is losing support among younger voters, but they are not switching to Trump, so it’s a matter of whether they will stay apathetic or vote.

      Trump is one the most effective campaigners in history, riling up a minority to possibly defeat a majority through a cult of personality operation. There’s no ideology, no policy, it’s all a function of Trump’s unique personality.

      Somerby’s notions have taken a hit by the big win the Dems had this month. He is now trying to draw a line between false accusations of antisemitism and concerns the blue tribe has about various oppressions, but it’s a false equivalency, so it falls flat.

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    17. George is a good, decent person.

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  10. There is no way to be pro-Palestinian without being anti-Israel. It is also hard to differentiate anti-semitic from anti-Israel because the entire reason why Palestinians have been historically against Israel is because it is formed by Jewish people. This is a religious conflict. So, trying to say that one divorce one's attitude toward Jews from one's attitude toward Israel's actions makes no sense at all.

    We all want the violence to stop, except the Palestinians and the Arab nations, who see the violence as a way to force Jews out of the Middle East (as if that could happen) or to wipe out the Jews (which IS a genocide, unlike the self-defense efforts of the Israelis).

    Asking this question today makes it clear that Somerby does not support Jews or Israelis. Cloaking his opinion in an inane essay about student activists changes nothing.

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    Replies
    1. When you put it like that, having a Right-wing religious fanatic lead Israel makes sense.

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    2. Israelis have a coalition government. What can they do to make Palestinians stop terrorism? Nothing. I blame Palestinians and Arab nations supporting them (Iran, Qatar, Arab leagues in UN). This is shameful for the Palestinians. They need to stop.

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    3. A majority of Americans support a ceasefire because they are aware of Israel’s oppression of Palestinians and the assymetrical violence Israel is perpetrating against innocent Palestinian civilians in reaction to the horrific Hamas attack.

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    4. And yet the Palestinians will be first to break it.

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    5. A majority of Americans understand the power imbalance dynamic between Israel and Palestinians, so regardless if one side breaks a ceasefire or not, Americans remain aware of the assymetry of Israel oppressing Palestinians through apartheid and violence.

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    6. This is how pro-Palestinians rationalize the perfidy of the underdogs?

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    7. "There is no way to be pro Palestinian without being anti Israel". There certainly is, and the false dichotomy that you traffic is a large part of the problem here. There are within Israel citizens who object to the apartheid approach taken to Palestinians without rejecting their country. They are pro Palestinian in this context. Any number of examples of US citizens rejecting policy waged against adversaries can be cited, and in some cases these individuals were labeled anti American by those whose lockstep acceptance of every government policy would make them perfect candidates for fascist governance. If, for example, Trump were elected and enacted a policy of subjugating the vermin he finds unpalatable, advocating for those people would not be anti American although some right wing media and individuals swayed by them would believe so.

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  11. There will be a 5-day ceasefire. I’ll bet Hamas/Palestinians break it first.

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    Replies
    1. What kind of odds are you giving, and are there minimum and maximum amounts one has to bet?

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    2. Just sayin’ based on past ceasefires.

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  12. This morning, Putin-lover Morning Joe admitted the war in Ukraine is unwinnable and it’s time to make a deal.

    What I told you guys is playing out. The war is over, now it's just:

    1. How do we GTFO?
    2. How do we tell the normies.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Republicans (Scarborough is a Republican) have shifted away from supporting Ukraine, the Hamas attack has been a useful tool in facilitating this.

      However, the Dems are still onboard, and if Biden can get funding to Ukraine, then Ukraine will continue to stomp Putin, and we will see Russia continue to slowly wither on the vine.

      Russia’s only hope is to get Trump elected. Trump will cease funding to Ukraine and end sanctions against Putin/Russia, and he will try to dismantle NATO, following Putin’s instructions.

      1:23 point of fact, nothing you have said is playing out, a delusion likely even you don’t really believe.

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    2. Oh - thanks for straightening me out about Ukraine stomping Putin and Scarborough advocating for Republican positions on his show.

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  13. I'll bet Bill Maher isn't pro-Palestinian.

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  14. There is nothing Palestinians can say that would justify the Hamas attack on innocent Israelis on 10/7. Listening to them suggests there is something they could say that would make it OK for them to have done what they did.

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    1. When you become a victim of ethnic cleansing, Corby, then, perhaps, you might be able to start lecturing victims of ethnic cleansing without sounding like a total asshole. But even then, I wouldn't recommend it.

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    2. You have no idea who you are speaking to. Calling someone Corby when you don't know their name is an example of making assumptions. How do you know whether my relatives died in the Holocaust? How do you know whether my family was Circassian or Armenian? Are you aware that the Irish consider the way the British treated them during the potato famine was a genocide?

      The Palestinians are not suffering a genocide. Calling it that is disrespectful to the actual survivors of genocides. More than that, it is an obvious propaganda maneuver on behalf of Palestine/Hamas/Qatar/Iran against Israel. Not every battle involves guns, and using words to malign Israel to Americans affects government support for Israeli defense from Congress and other nations.

      I don't care whether a pro-Palestinian lobbyist troll wants to call me an asshole, or call me Corby. For all I know, you could be paid by Russia, not from the funds donated to support starving children in Gaza.

      You still haven't provided any justification for what Hamas did on 10/7, because there is nothing you can say to justify that brutality against innocents. But note that it doesn't seem to bother you much. If you truly cared about the Palestinian people you would be working with those who favor peace, not trying to defend warmongers who use women and children as human shields and build their tunnels under a hospital in Gaza.

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    3. Corby is adorable.

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  15. Erecting a Jewish state in Palestine was a mistake. I am Corby.

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    Replies
    1. Corby is still in Iceland waiting for the volcano to erupt.

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    2. I’m authorized to comment as Corby, although I am not Corby.

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