WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 8, 2023
But does anyone much really care? Rather plainly, former president Barack Obama had said a wide array of the darndest things.
Yesterday, we transcribed his remarks. Speaking about the war in Gaza, he had said such things as this:
He'd said that we should acknowledge the "complexity" of the overall situation. He'd said that we should acknowledge the truth of what may seem, on the surface, to be "contradictory ideas."
"You can speak one side of the truth," he had said. "But if you want to solve the problem, then you have to take in the whole truth!"
He'd even said that we shouldn't "confine ourselves to our outrage!"
Most inscrutably of all, the former president had actually said this:
He'd said we should be "out there talking to other people, including people who [we] disagree with." Then he hauled off and said this:
"If you genuinely want to change this, then you’ve got to figure out how to speak to somebody on the other side and listen to them and understand what they are talking about and not dismiss it."
There it was, that "you've got to learn how to speak to others" diktat again! As with Brooks and Kristof and Bill Clinton before him, Obama had said that we need to "speak to somebody on the other side"—and he said we couldn't simply dismiss whatever such Others have said!
The guest on Fox had heard all this—and she knew what she had heard.
On Sunday morning's Fox & Friends, she said that Barack Obama's remarks had been "absolutely disgusting." She even repeated her wonderful joke, the one about the way progressives like Obama need to have yard signs which say, "Kill the Jews."
No other guest appeared on the show to critique what this guest had said. Nor was she asked to explain or defend her various remarkable statements.
At any rate, leave it to Obama! In a video clip which ran less than four minutes, he violated every rule of present-day "cable news" programming.
According to those well-known rules, seldom is heard a discouraging word on our favorite "cable news" programs. We never hear competing views from observers who may be on "the other side."
We don't have to "dismiss" what these Others have said because we never hear their opposing views in the first place! Our favorite stars, and our favorite producers, "dismiss" such viewpoints for us!
Obama spoke from an antique realm—from a world in which it's possible to imagine that there could be actual merit to more than one perspective or point of view. On cable news—on childish programs like Fox & Friends—this antique understanding is now almost wholly honored in the breach.
That said:
On the day when Obama was trashed on Fox, a familiar name appeared in a front-page report in the New York Times. Online, the news report appears beneath this pair of headlines:
How a Campaign of Extremist Violence Is Pushing the West Bank to the Brink
Israeli settlers and Palestinians have been locked in a cycle of bloodshed for decades. But extremist settler attacks could send the conflict out of control.
Viewers of Fox will never hear about the contents of this report. For that matter, viewers of MSNBC are also very unlikely to be burdened or bored by such complex content.
In all honesty, the familiar name wouldn't be familiar to most viewers of cable news. But shortly after the "horrific" behavior by Hamas on October 7—we're using Barack Obama's word—we had seen this same person interviewed on the PBS NewsHour.
Now he was quoted in the Times. The passage went like this:
GETTLEMAN ET AL (11/5/23): Palestinian leaders say their people are more frightened—by what is happening in Gaza and now across the West Bank—than they have been in a long time.
“Israel says they have the right to respond. They responded,” said Mustafa Bargouthi, a senior Palestinian lawmaker. “How many more thousand Palestinians should still die before they stop?”
In the case of Mr. Saleh, the man killed while picking olives, his family remains in shock.
In large part, the front-page report concerned the death of Bilal Mohammad Saleh, "a Palestinian sidewalk vendor of sage and thyme." Saleh had been shot and killed the previous week when he "went out with his family to pick olives from the gnarled trees that his family has owned for generations."
This incident happened in the West Bank, not in Gaza. The Times offered this overview:
GETTLEMAN ET AL: While the world’s attention has fallen on Gaza, violence in the West Bank, a much bigger and more complex Palestinian-majority area, is hitting its highest levels in years.
Some of the specific incidents, like the killing in the olive grove, reflect a longstanding problem in the West Bank that has gotten much worse since the Oct. 7 terrorist attacks: Heavily armed extremist settlers have operated with impunity for years, many Palestinians say, and now their assaults are becoming bolder, deadlier and nonstop.
[,,,]
According to witness statements, video footage and analysts who have examined larger patterns of the violence, extremist settlers in the West Bank have been attacking Palestinian homes and businesses, blowing up their generators and solar panels, burning down the tents of seminomadic Bedouin herders—and even shooting people.
United Nations officials say that since Oct. 7, the Israeli military and armed settlers have killed more than 130 Palestinians in the West Bank. (Most of those deaths occurred in clashes with Israeli soldiers.)
Even before the Hamas attacks, settler violence was hitting its highest levels since the United Nations began tracking it in the mid-2000s. According to U.N. figures, there used to be one incident of settler violence a day. Now it is seven.
Palestinian attacks on Israelis in the West Bank are also escalating, and Israeli officials say there have been more than 550 since Oct. 7.
Was Saleh killed by "extremist settlers?" This news report didn't explicitly say. But this was the general situation on which Mustafa Bargouthi had commented.
For ourselves, we'd been struck by what we'd seen him say almost one month before.
Make no mistake! These killings in the West Bank are part of what Obama was talking about when he made his "absolutely disgusting" remarks on that short video clip.
It's also true that people who watch clown-car programs like Fox & Friends will never hear about these killings in the West Bank. We'll guess that a certain Newsweek editor will never bring this possible point of complexity to the long-misused viewers of Fox.
For ourselves, we recalled what we'd seen Bargouthi say almost one month before. He'd appeared on The NewsHour on October 11, interviewed by John Yang.
Yang spoke with a former Israeli legislator, then he spoke with Bargouthi. You can watch the interview here, or you can see the full transcript.
Yang said he was seeking "another perspective!" The interview started like this:
YANG (10/11/23): For another perspective, we're joined by Dr. Mustafa Barghouti. He's a leader of the Palestinian National Initiative, which advocates nonviolence and offers an alternative to both Hamas and Fatah, which is the major force in the Palestinian Authority on the West Bank.
Dr. Barghouti, as the head of a Palestinian organization that advocates nonviolence, what's your reaction or what was your response to what happened in Southern Israel?
BARGHOUTI: You are absolutely right when you say that I'm an advocate of nonviolence.
We were shocked about what happened. I, as a person, always say that I am against any killing of any civilian, whether Palestinian or Israeli. And we're sorry for all those people who were killed, Palestinians and Israelis.
But, unfortunately, everybody keeps avoiding the root cause of the problem...
Yang had sought "another perspective!" However news orgs may spell his name, Barghouti continued from there.
On that occasion, we were struck by something Barghouti proceeded to say. It concerned the per capita GDP which prevails in Israel and in the Gaza Strip.
We aren't sure if his statement that night was perfectly accurate. Nor will you see such matters discussed by "our favorite reporters and friends" (including some who said to be "dear, dear friends"), no matter which of our corporate "cable news" channels you currently employ.
What did Barghouti say to Yang? Tomorrow, we'll post the text of his statement—and yes, his statement is closely related to one of the comments Obama would make a month later.
Tomorrow, we'll show you what he said. But under the current rules which govern our imitations of discourse, it might be said that it's fairly clear that nobody much really cares.
Barack Obama needs a sign, the Fox guest amusingly said.
Tomorrow: What Barghouti told Yang
“Nor will you see such matters discussed by "our favorite reporters and friends" (including some who said to be "dear, dear friends"), no matter which of our corporate "cable news" channels you currently employ.”
ReplyDeleteFirst, in general, the post is worthwhile.
But you can simply Google to see that there has been some discussion of the complexity of the issue. These are just a random sample:
Joy [Reid] on Israeli offensive: Bombings are funded using our tax dollars. We should ask some questions
Velshi: The right to exist goes both ways
Mental trauma that cannot be fathomed': Ayman Mohyeldin on plight of young people in Gaza Strip
Ali Velshi: Inside the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: Why It’s a decades-long conflict that evades solution
Velshi: When things get messy with Israel, America backs off its support for Palestinians
Perhaps Somerby doesn’t watch these shows. But that’s no excuse for making blanket statements that he doesn’t bother to verify.
And, as with Obama, the attempt at nuanced discussion by these presenters, some of whom are Muslim, is instantly met with charges of antisemitism.
It tough to believe Bob pays much attention to the job MSNBC is doing, he just hates them. Most outlets in this seem at least to be attempting balance.
DeleteHector, here is another example of a Somerby misrepresentation corrected by mh. He does this one a lot too.
Delete"Palestinian attacks on Israelis in the West Bank are also escalating, and Israeli officials say there have been more than 550 since Oct. 7."
ReplyDeleteDuring 2022, Palestinian terror attacks were frequent, and unreported by Fox News. Today, Somerby emphasizes the attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank, by Israeli "settlers," as if readers here are unaware of them. But it is largely Fox News who would be unaware, given that they are not reported there.
NY Times reports that the goal of such attacks is to encourage Palestinians to leave. But that is the goal of the Palestinian attacks in Gaza too -- to encourage Israelis living there to leave. In fact, Hamas has stated the goal of driving all Israelis out of Israel, to get them to leave.
Somerby suggests that we listen to both sides, but what if both sides are saying and doing the same things to each other? What is to be learned by that and how will hearing about the Israeli atrocities against Palestinians encourage any Israelis to change in any way? Those Isaelis have also heard about the Palestinian atrocities.
Somerby seems to expect some magic to occur from listening to others, but there is no evidence of that happening in any situation. Obama didn't accomplish anything with his "listening" and neither did Clinton (who is only described as listening to Pentecostals, not Republicans).
I see no harm in listening to others, as Somerby urges, but I don't think that alone will change anything much less accomplish peace in a territory where Trump's support of Israeli religious extremists and conservatives has led to a heightening of tensions and increased violence. For some reason, Hamas had the belief it could move Israel with an especially vicious attack, goading Israel into retaliation that permits Israel to be portrayed as bad. It is unclear what they think will happen next, but it isn't going to be anything helpful to Hamas. Their own extremism undercuts anything they might attribute to Israel. The only result seems to be more deaths followed by ongoing stalemate again.
Despite the propaganda Somerby is spreading today about kindly olive pickers, Israel and the world saw what Hamas did and they too represent Palestinians, terrorists capable of killing babies because they cannot live in peace with their neighbors.
Somerby gives a platform today to that propaganda, disguised as an attempt to communicate. But its goal is to shame Israel, not to inform Americans. We already know that Israelis retaliate. We know that Palestinians give them cause to do so, with random bombings in public places that injure and kill innocent people going about their normal lives. Presenting only the olive-picker's death doesn't help the situation, but it does reveal the intentions of this man who says he seeks peace and yet presents only the side of things that harms Israel. And Somerby follows right along, because these so-called peacemakers are singing Somerby's song -- Kumbaya.
Somerby clearly wants to draw a parallel between the discussion of the Mideast and the way liberals talk to the “others”, using Obama and Brooks and Kristof and Clinton as guides. But there’s a strained aspect to that parallel. The Mideast conflict could remind one of the American civil war, where intractable issues could not be peacefully resolved. Surely no one would have suggested in 1860 that we just needed to understand the complexity and learn to talk to the “others.” That would not have solved the problem of slavery or insurrection.
ReplyDeleteWhether this truly applies to liberals in the US, I don’t know, but Democrats did ok last night.
The solution to slavery was the United States conquering the Confedrate States. So, if mutual understanding doesn’t work, what’s the solution to the Middle East problem? The Muslims must conquer Israel!
DeleteActually, it was the secession of the southern states that convinced Lincoln to go to war. Your comment is flippant.
DeleteThe Israelis have won in each of the numerous armed conflicts going back to 1948 when it was attacked by arab nations the day after it was established as a nation. The only reason such wars continue is that the Israelis have shown mercy to the losers and agreed to negotiated agreements, none of which has achieved a lasting peace due to the continuing aggression of Arabs and now the Palestinians, working from within Israel.
DeleteAs was true for the Civil War in the US, the terms of peace matter. Reconstruction was not successfully completed as planned, so we are still dealing with ongoing racial inequality. The aftermath of the various wars against Israel have never properly asserted Israel's rights to territory as the victor. Too much compromise can lead to lingering conflict.
I favor a two-state solution, but what would guarantee that Arab nations wouldn't turn around and attack Israel again from that newly formed state, just as they have been doing forever. The progress being made with Saudi Arabia and Israel is a step toward a permanent peace because it robs Palestinian extremists and bad actors like Iran of additional Arab support, which is why Hamas acted as it did.
You haven't won a victory until the vanquished concede defeat. The Palestinians, the other Arabs, and the Muslims haven't conceded defeat.
DeleteAre Egypt and Jordan not Arab countries?
DeleteEgyptian and Jordanian popular opinion still support the Palestinians.
DeleteBut they signed a peace agreement and are not vowing to eradicate Israel, like the Palestinians are. The same with Saudi Arabia who has expressed interest in going forward with their attempts to normalize relations with Israel. The tide among major Arab nations is against this Palestinian intransigence. That's why the Hamas attack was so brutal.
DeleteHere is the Introduction of Mr. Barghouti given by John Yang:
ReplyDelete"For another perspective, we're joined by Dr. Mustafa Barghouti. He's a leader of the Palestinian National Initiative, which advocates nonviolence and offers an alternative to both Hamas and Fatah, which is the major force in the Palestinian Authority on the West Bank."
This Palestinian heads a so-called peace-seeking initiative, but he is not an elected leader of the Palestinians, he has no role in Hamas and there is no estimate of how many supporters he has in Gaza or the West Bank. Who does he speak for and what can he influence in Palestinian areas? We are not told and we have no idea -- nor does Somerby ask.
What does Barghouti want? He wants all Palestinians held prisoner in Israel to be released and he wants an immediate cease-fire and ceding of Palestinian territories to Palestinians. In other words, he wants Israel to stop efforts to contain Palestinian violence, give in to Hamas and wait for the next attack while allowing Palestinians complete freedom to do as they please. He offers no guarantee that anyone will stop or control Hamas, because he does not have the power to enact that. In fact, the Palestinian people elected Hamas and Hamas would have no members if Palestinians did not support their efforts.
In the Yang interview, there are two people giving their opinions. One is Barghouti, speaking about Palestinians, and the other is Yohanan Plesner of the Israel Democracy Institute, who is also a former member of the Knesset. It is a common trick of Somerby to leave out the info he feels may weaken his own case and today he doesn't tell you that Yang's PBS interview talked to both sides, including the one Somerby himself doesn't talk to or about, the Israeli perspective.
This is also not really an interview but a presentation of two distinct statements, without any Q&A. So, Barghouti never addresses the problem that Israelis cannot just let themselves be killed in the name of peace while Hamas doesn't let up, nor can Palestinians seeking peace do anything to control Hamas violence. Israel has the right to defend itself and the so-called apartheid in Gaza and other areas can be seen as a non-military political effort to do that by keeping Palestinians out of the areas where they have been terrorizing Israeli citizens with random violence. Barghouti provides no solution to that problem. He wants to ease living conditions for Palestinians, win their "freedom" without doing anything to reduce the prospect of violence by Hamas and other Palestinians whose excuse is that they are living in despair. Is despair worse than fear? Somerby has nothing to say about that, nor does Barghouti.
When you listen to BOTH sides, including Israeli perspective that Somerby disappears, the stalemate becomes clearer, but not the solution. Stomping one's foot and saying "change this now" is not the way to achieve peace. The Palestinians never had a right to attack Israel and their previous failed attempt in 2014 was no more justified than this one on Oct 7, except that it shows they have no intention of stopping their violence. And that is the biggest obstacle to peace.
Barghouti said nothing that isn't already part of Palestinian propaganda on every US campus. He talks about poverty and apartheid and despair. That is why the students are so upset and tend to favor Palestine -- they are hearing only Barghouti's side. Meanwhile, Palestinians in Gaza are also hearing the Hamas incitement to violence against Israel and being told they must fight or be martyrs for their freedom. Barghouti is similarly coy about that part of the situation.
ReplyDeleteBarghouti would say nothing different if he were not a peaceseeker but were instead an agent of Hamas trying to sway American opinion away from support of Israel.
If I were to draw a parallel to American politics, I could point out that the No Labels and Third Way and RFK Jr campaigns are similar disguised attempts by the right wing to attract voters from the left who are tired of conflict and seeking to resolve our divide. But the funding of No Labels by deep pocket right wingers shows that these are operations to divide the left and pull away Democratic votes, not a serious attempt to build a third party. The financial support comes from the right wing.
Where does Barghouti get his financial support? Who is behind his campaign to speak to the American people? And why would a Palestinian seeking peace be addressing Americans at all, instead of working with his own people to change the attitudes supporting war among Palestinians?
"The Palestinian National Initiative (PNI) – al-Mubadara in Arabic – describes itself as a democratic movement of non-violent resistance to the occupation. It supports peace with Israel based on a two-state solution, and the right of return for refugees.
It was co-founded in opposition to the Oslo Accords in the 1990s by Haidar Abdel-Shafi, Edward Said, Ibrahim Dakkak, and Mustafa Barghouti (the PNI’s current secretary general). The PNI has consultative party status in the Socialist International, and is a founding member of the Progressive Alliance."
https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/palestinian_national_initiative/
And in this paper we hear that this group, which Somerby characterizes as peaceseeking, has vowed to continue its resistance to Israel's occupation of Palestine. Instead of killing Israelis, it vows to seek a separate two-state solution with the release of all Palestinian prisoners and right of return for all Palestinian refugees. So, it has its own political goals beyond peace and represents an alternative to Hamas and Fatah. But no mention of where it gets its money. It has been around for over 20 years without any apparent progress. What has it been doing?
https://www.palestinechronicle.com/al-mubadara-celebrated-in-gaza-with-a-vow-to-continue-with-the-resistance/
ReplyDeleteI seems obvious that for as long as the settle-colonial Zionist entity remains there, violence is inevitable.
It's also seems obvious that the Zionist entity will collapse eventually, because we live in the post-colonial era.
So, it seems that the sooner the better.
Israel is not a colony. It is the post-colonial modern nation formed when the British-supervised territory called the Palestinian Mandate was dissolved by the United Nations. The term Zionist is a historical term that has no current meaning.
DeleteThe term settler refers to Israelis moving from one part of Israel into one of the territories overseen by Israel (Gaza, West Bank, Golan Heights). These are areas now being overseen by Israel following the latest of a series of unsuccessful wars against Israel lost by Arab nations seeking to end its existence. The winner of a war disposes of acquired territory, not the loser (those Arab aggressor nations).
Israel is not going to "collapse" because of the wishful thinking of Palestinians or neighboring Arab states. We may someday become a post-national global political entity, but that isn't happening any time soon. Mischaracterizing the situation using this kind of language is propaganda not serious discussion. Repeating the same stupid remarks over and over is not discussion either -- it is trolling.
Thanks for reading Corby. Sorry, I won't reciprocate.
DeleteSomerby expresses his non-opinion opinion with his selective quoting and ridicule of selective journalists and guests.
ReplyDeleteHe dislikes a woman supporting Israel, supposedly because of her lawn sign quip.
He likes Bargouti and leaves out the opposing view presented by a representative of Israel.
A more honest person would come right out and express his own opinion, instead of hinting, teasing, sarcasm and nonsense.
"A more honest person would come right out and express his own opinion, instead of hinting, teasing, sarcasm and nonsense."
DeleteWhatever reasons Somerby has for any withholding of his opinions, they have nothing to do with honesty. He's made no misrepresentation; and a writer is under no obligation to "come right out" with his opinion.
It is not true that he has made no misrepresentations. I have pointed out several myself, when they occur. No, I will not go back and look any up for you. I think his discussion of the impact of retention on the MS NAEP reading scores was a misrepresentation, especially since he never retracted it after the errors were pointed out, as Kevin Drum did.
DeleteThere is also such a thing as lying by omission. Somerby has done that one too. But his biggest and most frequent misrepresentation is calling himself liberal.
My claim of no misrepresentations was meant to apply to the items raised by 11:28, not to the entirety of Bob's 20+ years of blogging.
DeleteAnd whether you believe Bob to be liberal or not seems to hinge on whether you think it humanly possible for a liberal to spend most of his time criticizing other liberals.
My view of the many ways there are to think and be human says it is possible.
There are two falsehoods in this sentence:
ReplyDelete"Israeli settlers and Palestinians have been locked in a cycle of bloodshed for decades."
It's not a cycle. Palestinians have been initiating attacks for decades. Israel has helped the Palestinians in many ways, such as hospital care. Israel occasionally counter-attacks. But, the counter-attacks are not what precipitates the next Palestinian attack. The Palestinian attacks are self-motivated. If the Palestinians stopped attacking, the battles would immediately end. OTOH although Israel left Gaza entirely alone for 18 years, the Palestinians keep on attacking.
Who are the "settlers"? There are Jewish people who live in Israel.
Settlers refer to individuals who are not indigenous.
DeleteWhose land are the settlers settling in? And when will their settling end?
DeleteIt's like you and me. We are settlers here in America. We took over the indigenous population and settled on their land. In the case of Palestine/Israel, persecuted European Jews settled in Palestine where a group of indigenous people lived. (Some of whom were Jews.)
Delete"persecuted European Jews settled in Palestine where a group of indigenous people lived"
DeleteExcept that in 1946-48, when they perpetrated ethnic cleansing in Palestine, they weren't persecuted in Europe.
"They" being Zionists, of course. No one knows what the word "Jews" describes.
DeleteHow does Somerby expect peace when various Arab and/or Muslim nations and the Palestinians refuse to negotiate with Israel?
ReplyDeletePalestinians were engaging in terrorism against Jewish people even before the Palestinian Mandate was dissolved at the end of WWII. That sounds like ethnic cleansing of Jews by Palestinians to me.
ReplyDeleteWhy does Somerby not question the extreme sense of Otherness held by Palestinians that would cause them to fight to the deaths of their neighbors for a piece of land that they have not owned for over 500 years? This refusal to live peacefully alongside Israelis simply because they are Jewish, is irrational, unreasonable, and at the heart of this conflict which has taken so many lives. Why does Somerby not condemn that?
ReplyDeleteAre supporters of Palestine aware that they absolutely refuse to negotiate with Israel over anything?
In today's Slow Boring, Matt Yglesias says, "politics is mostly about persuasion not base-mobilization." I'm so confused - I was told that liberals cannot believe this.
ReplyDeleteMatt Yglesias is a right winger. Why wouldn't he agree with you (and vice versa)?
DeleteWho says Matt Yglesias is right?
DeleteYglesias also said in advance of the 2020 election that “Moderate candidates do better”, claimed that Trump ran as a moderate and that’s why he won, and criticized progressives for championing Medicare for all and student debt relief.
DeleteThe topic is too complex for this little tit for tat you are engaging in. I don’t feel that his premise is universally valid, and it also fails to address the idea of what “moderate” means in a political climate where Republican extremism has pulled the moderate or centrist position to the right. It seems yglesias mainly wants to tell progressives to move to the center, and not conservatives.
Not Wikipedia. But 1:03 wants to dismiss the comment rather than address it, leave them their emotional space I guess.
DeleteThis is a matter of fact, not opinion. It is better to look up research results on the topic of persuasion than to look at what Matt Yglesias says about it. He is not a social psychologist or political scientist (by education and training) but a journalist.
DeleteFirst, there is no free will and everything in the universe is on a spectrum.
DeleteThe Left is a cohort that supports egalitarianism and equality, whereas the Right wants hierarchy and dominance; this Left/Right divide, properly defined, has been the fundamental struggle in society for ten thousand years. One of the key elements that brought about this struggle was when humans shifted away from immediate-return societies to a surplus based society focused on commodification of resources.
Modern humans (Homo Sapiens) innately tend towards egalitarianism - it is how we have existed for 95% of the time (we have been around for ~100-300k years); the right wing condition is not inherent, it emerges from circumstances in society.
The Right have no ideology, they are driven by an obsession with hierarchy and dominance, which is why they flip easily on issues and are not hampered by integrity; anything and everything can be weaponized. Psychologists say they are stuck in survivor mode which, in certain circumstances, inhibits their ability to be rational. Others have discovered non genetic changes in their brain, they tend to develop a smaller frontal cortex and larger amygdala, likely caused by unresolved trauma - under certain conditions, this diminishes their ability to be rational and intensifies their sense of fear.
This is why there are so many grifters and opportunists among their ranks.
Yglesias is part of a public cohort that formerly presented themselves as left leaning but are now relatively open about being on the right, which includes: Glenn Greenwald, Matt Tiabbi, Tulsi Gabbard, Drum, RFK jr, Jimmy Dore, Joe Rogan on and on…and Somerby, although he remains coy about it.
This group, along with some Republicans, push the false notion that persuasion has a role in electoral politics; it does not. No one else is pushing this false notion, as it’s been long debunked, so it’s clearly a partisan effort to weaponize a concept to con people.
No one really has been suckered, it’s just another zombie right wing nonsense notion, it’s torch carried solely by right wingers.
Notably, there has been no persuasion.
Dems had a big win yesterday, employing motivation, exposing in part the folly of those latest “scary” polls; Somerby has not yet figured out a way to twist logic, put his thumb on the scale, and manufacture a false narrative that minimizes this big win, but he will get there.
So,, keeping score: Obama thinks persuasion is key; Yglesias thinks persuasion is key; but "free will" Anonymouse thinks this is "just another right wing nonsense notion."
DeleteHey, "free will" Anonymouse - Tell us more about the proper definition of the Left/Right divide and about the struggle that was brought about "when humans shifted away from immediate-return societies to a surplus based society focused on commodification of resources."
DeleteYou can live in the real world or you can live in a fantasy political world. If you devote efforts to persuasion and wind up losing elections, would that penetrate your bubble? Why did Dems win so much yesterday? Because women were pissed off over being made 2nd class citizens and because Dems in general oppose MAGA extremism, including meddling with school boards (where a lot of conservative candidates lost) and enacting stupid repressive laws (note that VA lost its Republican majority in its state legislature and has Democratic majorities in both chambers now. Democrats were not persuaded about this -- they were motivated to get out and vote to oppose things they already disliked.
DeleteThe value of motivation over persuasion is that when someone is motivated, they will vote Democratic across a variety of candidates and issues, whereas if they are only persuaded, they will vote only for the issue you have persuaded them on. If there are truly personality determinants of party preference, then persuasion is only going to work on those with the right personalities. Talking about abortion isn't going to persuade any Republicans to support abortion rights, but it will make a whole lot of Democrats come out of the woodwork to protect their rights.
“Free will” Anonymouse - I’d rather hear your views about the “non genetic changes” (likely caused by “unresolved trauma”) in the brains of conservatives which leads to to their developing “a smaller frontal cortex and larger amygdala,” which in turn “diminishes their ability to be rational and intensifies their sense of fear.”
Delete@6:03 — not Free Will.
DeleteQuestion: I think yglesias is talking about persuasion of swing voters, not registered republicans. Right, dogface? Did Obama persuade any swing voters to support, I don’t know, gay marriage or federal health insurance? Many of those swing voters turned around and voted for Trump, at least according to the going wisdom that there were such voters. Trump was opposed to those things I mentioned. So the idea that persuasion works has to be compared against a group of voters who essentially have no ideology or principles, seeing how they could vote in such a way for radically different candidates. A more logical explanation is that they were starstruck by charismatic candidates.
Delete@6:42 if you recall, Somerby has on more than one occasion described conservatives as “victims”, with Trump being Chief Victim. (Rather than, you know, victimizing others, as he does).
DeleteWhy is Somerby more concerned about a Palestinian olive picker than about Jewish babies brutally murdered?
ReplyDeleteThe older one gets the more one appreciates olives, it’s a bit of an acquired taste.
DeleteSwift aside, babies do not taste good.
“Can we all get along”—Rodney King, after being brutally beaten by cops and watching the ensuing riots when said cops were acquitted
ReplyDeleteIf Somerby’s point is that our discourse about the Middle East is so poisoned that any acknowledgment of complexity or nuance brings charges of antisemitism or islamophobia, then he could confine himself to that, because that is correct. I don’t know why he is selectively bringing in Palestinian voices here. His main goal seems to be to tie this to his idea that liberals do not but should treat the “others” ie conservatives with respect, as if that solves both the Mideast crisis and some imagined liberal electoral failure.
There are plenty of other cases where liberals or progressives get slimed by someone on Fox News that Somerby never mentions. The idea of “getting along” has to be embraced by both (or all) sides.
Obama’s view, which Somerby eagerly embraces, has already been derided as fatuous by a right wing commenter here at this blog. Why would the word fatuous not apply to Somerby’s admonition to liberals about their supposed electoral approach?
I get paid more than $140 to $170 per hour for working online. I heard about this job 3 months ago and after joining this I have earned easily $25k from this without having online working skills . Simply give it a shot on the accompanying site…
ReplyDeleteHere is I started.…………>>
Citi, a big credit card issuer, discriminated against Armenians. WTF?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-orders-citi-to-pay-25-9-million-for-intentional-illegal-discrimination-against-armenian-americans/
The IDF has labeled the recent Israeli settler activities against West Bank Palestinians terrorist in nature. The rate of these, including violence, killing, and forcible displacement of Palestinians from their property had increased substantially in the year before 10/7. European financial support of Palestinian development specifically earmarked for buildings and infrastructure was called into question in 2016 when it was documented that over 150 such projects had been destroyed by the Israelis. One sided right wing narratives that support Netanyahu's policies are dishonest. But maybe as one commenter says, we should not be giving fungible money to governments who can funnel it to terrorists. Then go talk to the IDF.
ReplyDeleteIt's not "one sided right wing narratives".
DeleteIt's called "hasbara". Slimy drivel, produced, most likely, by the same slimeballs who produce your beloved DNC narratives.
Unamused, you neglect the corresponding increase in Palestinian terrorist attacks on Israelis during that same time period.
DeleteIt may be that Israel has finally run out of patience with Palestinian antics.
DeleteOr it could be that the extreme right wing wannabe dictator of Israel is lashing out in an uncivilized and criminal manner because he has been so humiliated by allowing this horrific attack to happen on his watch. Perfectly understandable.
DeletePrior to 10/7 large numbers of Israelis decried the violence imposed on the West Bank Palestinians and the inappropriateness of the settlements. A full understanding of this conflict will not come from the unilateral support of Israel's conduct before and after 10/7. One Israeli writer describes Gaza as the world's largest open air prison (Haggai Mattar writing for +972 magazine). The Israeli's long-standing misconduct towards the Palestinians is well understood by large numbers of Israelis, if not by contributors to this discussion.
DeleteErecting a Zionist state in the Levant was a mistake.
ReplyDelete"According to those well-known rules, seldom is heard a discouraging word on our favorite "cable news" programs. We never hear competing views from observers who may be on "the other side."
ReplyDeleteThe same is true for the horribly idiotic political blogs each side reads. (They are read and run mostly by aging white men.)
digby is female, so is Heather Cox Richardson. I admire their blogs.
DeleteLet's not talk about Digby.
Delete5:56 is of course wrong, so is Somerby by imputation. The blogs I read are full of criticism of liberals and/or Democrats. Just recently, Biden’s supposed border policy switch was heavily criticized at LGM. Also, that blog was very unenthusiastic about Biden back in 2020. No more mr nice blog constantly criticizes Democrats for their (in his view) ineffective campaign style. He even railed against “defund the police”, and laments Biden’s current poll numbers, just like our boy. Even Peter Greene at curmudgucation, which is an education blog, is critical of a lot of liberal education policy from people like Arne Duncan and Bill Gates. So please, get your facts straight.
DeleteDo those aging white dorks regularly show you competing views from observers who may be on "the other side?
DeleteNo. They don't. They hide it from you until they can't at which time they spin it and you. So hard.
I much prefer reading russian trolls in the comments
DeleteRussian trolls are white dorks.
DeleteWhen did LGM heavily criticize Biden’s supposed border policy switch?
DeleteWhen you search for 'Biden' all of the returns on the first page are dorky posts defending him, often with aging, white sarcasm and whataboutism. There are no discouraging words (as always with LGM, Loomis excepted.)
DeleteDemocrats are the party of aging whites. That's about it these days.
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