Should journalists call a lie a lie?

FRIDAY, JANUARY 13, 2017

How the debate got started:
Two Sundays ago, it started.

On Meet the Press, Chuck Todd was speaking with Gerard Baker, editor in chief of the Wall Street Journal. With our journalistic culture crumbling around him, Brother Todd asked a question:

Should journalists call a lie a lie?

After Brother Todd popped the question, Baker gave Todd a reply.

Should journalists call a lie a lie? As a general matter, we'd say the answer is no.

Just last night, an unnamed major cable star helped us see why the L-bomb can be dangerous. In her case, she made several basic factual errors, trailing L-bombs behind her as she proceeded.

In fairness, most journalists aren't as kooky or self-indulgent as this rapidly fading star. For today, let's just consider what Todd and Baker said:
TODD (1/1/17): The issue of facts. We don't— People always say, "You've got to fact-check, you've got to fact-check." But we sometimes—there isn't an agreement on what the facts are. And this is yet another challenge for you and everybody here, which—

Do you feel comfortable saying. "So-and-so lied?" To be that—you know, if somebody says just an outright falsehood, do you say the word "lie?" Is that important to start putting in reporting or not?

BAKER: You know, it's a good— I'd be careful about using the word "lie." "Lie" implies much more than just saying something is false. It implies a deliberate intent to mislead. I think it's perfectly—

When Donald Trump says thousands of people were on the rooftops of New Jersey on 9/11 celebrating, thousands of Muslims were there celebrating, I think it's right to investigate that claim, to report what we found, which is that nobody found any evidence of that whatsoever, and to say that.

I think it's then up to the readers to make up their own mind, to say, "This is what Donald Trump says, this is what a reliable, trustworthy news organization reports. And you know what, I don't think that's true."

I think if you start ascribing a moral intent, as it were, to someone by saying that they've lied, I think you run the risk that you look like you are being—you're not being objective. And I do think also it implies that people—

This is happening all the time now, people are looking at what Donald Trump is saying and saying this is false, this is a false claim. I think people say, "Well you know what, Hillary Clinton said a lot of things that were false. I don't recall the press being quite so concerned about saying that she lied when, in headlines or in stories like that."
That's what the twin titans said. For starters, let's frisk Todd's question, simplifying his language the tiniest bit:

If somebody says an outright falsehood, should a reporter say that he or she "lied?"

Basically, that's the question Todd asked. It's a perfectly sensible question.

That said, we'd be inclined to pose a second question in return:

If Person A says an outright falsehood, what would be wrong with reporting that Person A "said an outright falsehood?"

What exactly would be wrong with using language like that? Even that language strikes us as a bit problematic. But what's wrong with using language which simply reports that Person A made a statement which is blatantly or plainly false? Why do we want to jump ahead to the claim that Person A "lied?"

As a starter, that's the question we'd pose to Todd.

Now let's turn to Baker. He starts off noting an obvious fact: When we say that Person A lied, we've gone beyond the mere claim that Person A made a misstatement.

As Baker notes, we're now saying that Person A deliberately tried to mislead us. This takes us into the realm of intent, and intent is typically hard to demonstrate or know.

When Trump made the statement to which Baker refers, was he telling a lie? Was he telling a lie when he continued making his claim, even after evidence began to indicate that his statement was almost certainly wrong?

It's hard to nail down an answer to such questions. In partisan times like these, the claim that Person A (or Donald Trump) lied will tend to end the consideration of what Person A did. One tribe will cheer; the other tribe will leave the room. Inevitably, the reporter will have to admit that he can't quite demonstrate or prove Person A's intent.

Our basic point for the day:

There is a lot of very strong language which falls short of the claim that So-and-so "lied." In the past several decades, our mainstream reporters have very rarely turned to the use of such language, even when discussing public figures who seem to make wild misstatments as a matter of course.

There's a lot of strong language which falls short of the claim that So-and-so "lied." In most cases, we'd suggest that reporters try that sort of language out before they jump ahead to the diagnosis of "lies."

In future episodes of this series, we'll look at some of the punditry which followed Todd and Baker's exchange. We also may look at Baker's statement in a bit more detail. As he continued along, we thought he got rather wobbly. How often has Brother Baker pondered questions like this?

That said, "outright falsehood" is strong language. Has Brother Todd ever used it? We'll guess the answer is no.

32 comments:

  1. Misstatements and simple ignorance aren't enough to call it a lie but if it is a misstatement made with knowledge of its falseness or deliberate negligence to avoid finding out whether it's true, then yes, call it a lie. Lawrence O'Donnell on MSNBC is the worst offender, or liar.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. " Lawrence O'Donnell on MSNBC is the worst offender, or liar."

      Nope, that honor goes to trump.

      Delete
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      Delete
  2. More of what Trump says publicly is false than true, a remarkable circumstance. It is like a weird strategy to mislead so much that people give up trying to fact check. But it worked.

    ReplyDelete
  3. In principle I would like to see the media call a false statement "false". (But IMHO they hsouldn't try to guess if it's an intenational lie or just a mistake.)

    The trouble is, many in the media are not that knowledgable and many of them are politically biased. Instapundit's joke is to call them "Democratic Operatives with Bylines"

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'd rather read about dating advice and how you won your man back.

      Delete
    2. So, is Instapundit lying or saying something false? I vote for lying.

      Delete
  4. My ex and I were together for 5 years. We lived together and were engaged. We went on a trip with friends and his family and had a nasty fight and broke up. We both moved out of our home and with our parents. We decided to go no contact for a month and 2 weeks in he started dating a girl and took her on a trip to California ( where we’ve gone the last 2 years on my bday) on my birthday weekend! After battling it out thru emails and a few meetings we finally came to see each other all of last week, i love him so much and i was so desperate to have him back coz i new that girl was not the right person for him so i have to save my relationship and reunite with me ex again so i try all i could to bring him back but all to avail i have be in contact with so many spell caster who only too my money and still nothing good work out of it, i ws so confuse and devastated one day trying to search on facebook, i come across a wonderful testimony of a lady on how a spell caster who she contacted also for love spell help her and bring her husband back to her with-in less day 2 days after the spell i was so fill with joy coz this lady meant my day and i regain my hope back so i directly and desperately email http://happyspelltemple.webs.com/ coz i love my ex so much and i want him back all to my self so with-in 5 min,Dr happy email me back with hope and told me that i have found solution in him that i should worried no more so i did all he ask of me and he gave me assured and guarantee that my ex will come back so i believed and was so gifted all to my surprise after the spell my ex call, come to my working beg and apology for his mistake,and he said sorry for the nasty break up that he was inconsiderate of my feelings nt in tend to hurt me. i can testify with the power love spell of Dr happy me and my ex are happily married now thank you Dr happy i will for ever be grateful to you and keep sharing your testimony if you need help or love spell fine it difficult to get back with your ex, email happylovespell2@gmail.com or call his mobile number on +2348133873774

    ReplyDelete
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  6. How do you ever hold anyone accountable for the moral and ethical problems inherent in their never telling the truth? When someone does lie for self-gain, shouldn't that be part of the evaluation of that candidate or official?

    Telling the truth and not lying is part of the job description for journalists. Politicians are given some latitude. No one, especially the president, is permitted to tell untruths 75% of the time. When that happens, it doesn't matter whether you call it lying or being wrong -- that person is unreliable and people should be saying so.

    Donald Trump no longer deserves the benefit of the doubt.

    When you pretend that someone could just be mistaken, or even leave room to conclude that something he said is correct in some universe, those who WANT to believe him will disregard the fact-checking. The statements are not what should be focused upon. The person needs to be evaluated with respect to his ability to live in the real world.

    So, I believe we should be calling Trump a liar, at every opportunity, until that message sinks in for his most gullible followers. Until it seems to be no longer a partisan claim.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No one can be that wrong, that often, without it being deliberate. Trump is a liar.

      Delete
    2. I agree. Sadly, most leading pols in both parties are liars. The public seems to only care about lies told by the other tribe. We find ways to ignore or rationalize the lies told by our tribe.

      Delete
    3. You don't agree with me. Not even close. You can't reduce the champion lying by Trump down to a "both sides do it" equation.

      I am a Democrat because the Republicans are much further out of touch with reality. I am not the only one who thinks this. Studies confirm it.

      Delete
    4. Get the fuck out of here, DinC.

      You have no right to associate with decent people. You are to be shunned. Go hang out on the white nationalist, racist, sexist blogs where your kind of people hang out. WTF are you trolling here anyway?

      Delete
    5. Vulgarity and crazed attacks. Typical Clinton supporter.

      Delete
    6. David, take your evil twin with you when you leave.

      Delete
  7. Booman comes clean:

    "One thing I know I really didn’t do in this campaign was to defend Clinton. It was difficult for me to accept that she would be our party’s nominee, although I accepted it fully even though I didn’t vote for her. Spending my energy defending her was generally just too much for me, however. I thought she could pull off a victory because I gave the public too much credit for being able to see through Trump. Nonetheless, I saw the main threat as the possibility that they wouldn’t. Trump was getting a lot of press coverage, and I thought it was most important to counter the positive attributes and narratives he was receiving.

    The last thing I felt like doing was writing about Benghazi or her email server or (especially) the Clinton Foundation. That appears to have been a mistake on my part. The real threat was that Clinton would be brought down to Trump’s level and seen as equally unacceptable.

    A lot of the Clinton bashing was coming from the left and from the Sanders camp, and I was often at least sympathetic to their criticisms. I did, after all, cast my vote for Sanders. I should have been rougher with these folks than I was. At a certain point, they were doing the devil’s work. Still, I refused to get into calling people “emos” or attacking “BernieBros.” I didn’t want to increase divisions. I still don’t think I was wrong to take the high road in terms of making personal attacks, but I should have spent more time pushing back at the lazy consensus among “true” progressives that Clinton was some kind of nefarious and dangerous candidate.
    ..."

    He concludes that we didn't act like a team when we needed to. Maybe having a common enemy will change that.

    http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2017/1/14/115015/803

    ReplyDelete
  8. Over at Conservative Tree House, a story quotes Kelly Anne Conway stating that Trump has plans for immediate execution. The first comment is:

    "Great. Who are we going to execute first?"

    Meantime, James Wimberley suggests that Trump is firing key security personnel in order to put his own apparatus in place. The main question is whether this is in service of Russia or his own coup.

    Why would a newly elected President care more about who controls his nukes than he does about who he appoints to cabinet or staff positions? There are no good answers to that question.

    http://www.samefacts.com/2017/01/president-elect-trump/where-is-dr-strangelove-when-you-need-him/

    ReplyDelete
  9. This appears to be a lot of fol de rol about what shade of lipstick you prefer on your pig.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. How is the weather in Estonia?

      Delete
  10. My ex and I were together for 5 years. We lived together and were engaged. We went on a trip with friends and his family and had a nasty fight and broke up. We both moved out of our home and with our parents. We decided to go no contact for a month and 2 weeks in he started dating a girl and took her on a trip to California ( where we’ve gone the last 2 years on my bday) on my birthday weekend! After battling it out thru emails and a few meetings we finally came to see each other all of last week, i love him so much and i was so desperate to have him back coz i new that girl was not the right person for him so i have to save my relationship and reunite with me ex again so i try all i could to bring him back but all to avail i have be in contact with so many spell caster who only too my money and still nothing good work out of it, i ws so confuse and devastated one day trying to search on facebook, i come across a wonderful testimony of a lady on how a spell caster who she contacted also for love spell help her and bring her husband back to her with-in less day 2 days after the spell i was so fill with joy coz this lady meant my day and i regain my hope back so i directly and desperately email http://happyspelltemple.webs.com/ coz i love my ex so much and i want him back all to my self so with-in 5 min,Dr happy email me back with hope and told me that i have found solution in him that i should worried no more so i did all he ask of me and he gave me assured and guarantee that my ex will come back so i believed and was so gifted all to my surprise after the spell my ex call, come to my working beg and apology for his mistake,and he said sorry for the nasty break up that he was inconsiderate of my feelings nt in tend to hurt me. i can testify with the power love spell of Dr happy me and my ex are happily married now thank you Dr happy i will for ever be grateful to you and keep sharing your testimony if you need help or love spell fine it difficult to get back with your ex, email happylovespell2@gmail.com or call his mobile number on +2348133873774

    ReplyDelete
  11. Hello, I am Theresa Williams After being in relationship with Anderson for years, he broke up with me, I did everything possible to bring him back but all was in vain, I wanted him back so much because of the love I have for him, I begged him with everything, I made promises but he refused. I explained my problem to my friend and she suggested that I should rather contact a spell caster that could help me cast a spell to bring him back but I am the type that never believed in spell, I had no choice than to try it, I mailed the spell caster, and he told me there was no problem that everything will be okay before three days, that my ex will return to me before three days, he cast the spell and surprisingly in the second day, it was around 4pm. My ex called me, I was so surprised, I answered the call and all he said was that he was so sorry for everything that happened that he wanted me to return to him, that he loves me so much. I was so happy and went to him that was how we started living together happily again. Since then, I have made promise that anybody I know that have a relationship problem, I would be of help to such person by referring him or her to the only real and powerful spell caster who helped me with my own problem. email: drogunduspellcaster@gmail.com you can email him if you need his assistance in your relationship or any other Case.

    1) Love Spells
    2) Lost Love Spells
    3) Divorce Spells
    4) Marriage Spells
    5) Binding Spell.
    6) Breakup Spells
    7) Banish a past Lover
    8.) You want to be promoted in your office/ Lottery spell
    9) want to satisfy your lover
    Contact this great man if you are having any problem for a lasting solution
    through drogunduspellcaster@gmail.com

    ReplyDelete
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    ReplyDelete
  14. Dr DAN is a very genuine spell caster and a very unique and a powerful man of wisdom. Dr DAN brought back joy to my life and to my family again by bringing my husband back to me, by curing my sister's Diabetes disease with his special powers. Dr DAN is really gifted, amazing, and a very good man who truly knows how to do his job better and if not for him what would my life turn to? Dr DAN thank you so much and i will never stop talking about your great deeds. Words can not express how much good you have done for me and my family and i believe that even a thousand words won't be enough to describe your good great works. If you are in need of any spiritual help why not run to Dr DAN? just contact Dr DAN on his email: blessedspellhome@hotmail.com or you can call him +13107517818 and he will help you. Contact him now and get your solution. Thank you Dr DAN for you are indeed a great man.



    Dr DAN is a very genuine spell caster and a very unique and a powerful man of wisdom. Dr DAN brought back joy to my life and to my family again by bringing my husband back to me, by curing my sister's Diabetes disease with his special powers. Dr DAN is really gifted, amazing, and a very good man who truly knows how to do his job better and if not for him what would my life turn to? Dr DAN thank you so much and i will never stop talking about your great deeds. Words can not express how much good you have done for me and my family and i believe that even a thousand words won't be enough to describe your good great works. If you are in need of any spiritual help why not run to Dr DAN? just contact Dr DAN on his email: blessedspellhome@hotmail.com or you can call him +13107517818 and he will help you. Contact him now and get your solution. Thank you Dr DAN for you are indeed a great man.

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  15. My name is Bene, I never thought I will smile again, My husband left me with two kids for one years, All effort to bring him back failed I thought I'm not going to see him again not until I met a lady called Jesse who told me about a spell caster called MUTABA, She gave me his email address and mobile number and I contacted him and he assured me that within 48 hours my husband will come back to me, In less than 48 hours my husband came back started begging for forgiveness saying it is the devils work, so I'm still surprise till now about this miracle,i couldn't conceive but as soon as the spell was cast,i became pregnant and gave birth to my third child(Michelle) if you need any assistance from him you can contact him via:email: greatmutaba@yahoo.com

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  16. My ex and I were together for 5 years. We lived together and were engaged. We went on a trip with friends and his family and had a nasty fight and broke up. We both moved out of our home and with our parents. We decided to go no contact for a month and 2 weeks in he started dating a girl and took her on a trip to California ( where we’ve gone the last 2 years on my bday) on my birthday weekend! After battling it out thru emails and a few meetings we finally came to see each other all of last week, i love him so much and i was so desperate to have him back coz i new that girl was not the right person for him so i have to save my relationship and reunite with me ex again so i try all i could to bring him back but all to avail i have be in contact with so many spell caster who only too my money and still nothing good work out of it, i ws so confuse and devastated one day trying to search on facebook, i come across a wonderful testimony of a lady on how a spell caster who she contacted also for love spell help her and bring her husband back to her with-in less day 2 days after the spell i was so fill with joy coz this lady meant my day and i regain my hope back so i directly and desperately email http://happyspelltemple.webs.com/ coz i love my ex so much and i want him back all to my self so with-in 5 min,Dr happy email me back with hope and told me that i have found solution in him that i should worried no more so i did all he ask of me and he gave me assured and guarantee that my ex will come back so i believed and was so gifted all to my surprise after the spell my ex call, come to my working beg and apology for his mistake,and he said sorry for the nasty break up that he was inconsiderate of my feelings nt in tend to hurt me. i can testify with the power love spell of Dr happy me and my ex are happily married now thank you Dr happy i will for ever be grateful to you and keep sharing your testimony if you need help or love spell fine it difficult to get back with your ex, email happylovespell2@gmail.com or call his mobile number on +2348133873774

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  17. Good day, I Am Suzy Parker. I'm from United States Of America, I want to quickly write on a Powerful Love spell Caster that helped me when i had a misunderstanding with my husband which leads to Divorced, I contacted this Powerful spell caster for help and He actually helped me without running away with my money.I follow the step that he ask and within 48 hours my husband called me and was eager for my forgiveness and that he wished nothing more than to have me in his arms forever. I am filled with so much joy and happiness that I found Dr. Iyaryi, I hope you all here will find this testimony of mine and get your husband back in just 48 hours. He did a perfect work for me. I am So Happy and Excited because as i am writing this Testimony, My husband is madly in love with me again. If there is any body Out there who is in Difficulties and need help should kindly Contact Dr. Iyaryi on His Email ID driayaryi2012@hotmail.com and he is Ready to Help you no matter the Situation, Here is His Valid Email ID: driayaryi2012@hotmail.com And also Reach him on WhatsApp Number: +2348056932763 Thanks Dr. Iyaryi

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