The primacy of statues: In this morning's Washington Post, the op-ed page features two (2) columns about statues and statuary.
Aside from Halloween costumes, does anyone talk about anything else?
In her column, Kathleen Parker rolled her eyes about the primacy of statues. In a second column, Megan McArdle offered a wry aside about the man whose mental state no one's allowed to discuss:
MCARDLE (6/24/20): Chances are, you still remember clearly what President Trump said in 2017, after violent clashes in Charlottesville between white supremacists rallying around a statue of Robert E. Lee and leftist counterprotesters. “You had some very bad people in that group,” Trump allowed at an Aug. 15th news conference, “but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides.” Almost three years on, anyone who tries to deny that Trump is a racist is apt to have those words flung back in their face."This came in for much derision," McArdle says as she continues. She's referring to the commander's question about the possible future status of statues of General Washington.
We recall those remarks, but most of us have slowly forgotten about what else Trump said, although it was almost as controversial at the time: “So this week it’s Robert E. Lee. I noticed that Stonewall Jackson is coming down. I wonder, is it George Washington next week? And is it Thomas Jefferson the week after? You know, you really do have to ask yourself, where does it stop?”
"Time passed, and now it seems everybody's having them dreams!" Trump's prophecy was mocked at the time, but serious questions now fly about concerning statues of Washington—even concerning the well-known name of a well-known western state! We saw a professor on TV last night discussing that very same thing!
To some extent, statues do matter. So, it seems, do Halloween costumes. Could adults possibly just agree to stop attending such parties?
To some extent, statues do matter! But here's a point which occurs to us whenever we see these discussions:
We spent the first dozen years of our adult life in and around the Baltimore City Schools. You know the great kids who appeared in the tragic videotape to which we linked this morning?
Here in Baltimore, we were teaching kids their age at that very same time!
We spent nine full years in the classroom, mostly teaching fifth and sixth graders. And from that day to this, we've seen plenty of discussions of the primacy of statuary and Halloween garb, but we're not sure we've ever seen a serious discussion of what happens, and what doesn't happen, inside urban schools.
We humans! We care about statues and Halloween garb. Do we give a flying fark about kids?
The things we noticed during those years involve academic procedures. They also involve the happiness of good decent kids—the right of children to be happy, to feel good about themselves, and then to proceed from there.
We don't see any talk about any such matters; we never really have. We did see a professor last night discussing the triage of statues, and the name of a western state.
Does anyone give a fat flying fark about the lives of children?
Anthropologists tell us the answer is no. No one cares less than the folks at the Times, or so these top experts have said.
'Do we give a flying fark about kids?'
ReplyDeleteCertainly Trumptards like Somerby do not, since he was a gallant defender of Zimmerman in the Travyon Martin case a few years back. But give TDH credit -- he also defended Roy moore known for his repulsive stalking of teenage girls. Somerby only cares about kids in the sense that he uses to them to bash liberals, whereas continuing his daily quest to re-elect DJT, like the 'useless idiot' that he is.
You can't quote TDH defending Zimmerman or Moore. Which is why you don't.
DeleteNow stop lying or trolling or both.
You think that if Somerby doesn't say "I hereby defend Roy Moore" then he hasn't defended him. It doesn't work that way.
DeleteYes, deadrat, it’s quite a stretch for Centrist to suggest that Somerby was defending Roy Moore, given how Somerby wrote dozens and dozens of posts showing how a much older man dating teenage girls and hanging around a shopping mall flirting with 14 and 15 year old girls was perfectly normal and acceptable back then. He even did a lengthy excursion into examining a number of Hollywood films depicting such relationships. The amount of time and effort he spent on it seems curious, almost as if he was trying to convince his readers of something that they were inclined to disagree with, and that the latter-day judgment of his erstwhile dating partners (the ones he didn’t molest) that his behavior was creepy should be ignored.
DeleteBut “defending” Roy Moore? Heaven forfend.
Non-partisan, we've been through this before, and I'll be glad to explain it again for you.
DeleteIf you could actually quote TDH defending the Gadsden Mall Creeper's activities with underage girls, then you would, but you can't. Because he didn't. TDH's complaint with the media's coverage of the GMC was two-fold:
1. Roy Moore's dating and subsequent marriage to his wife Kayla shouldn't be a target for the media's disapproval. She was an adult when they dated; she was 24 when she married him. (They're still married to each other.) The fact that the GMC was 38 when he married Kayla may outrage some (like you), but really it's not anyone else's business but the Moores'.
2. The media should have concentrated less on the merely creepy stories of the GMC's , er, "preferences," and taken more interest in the "credible" (TDH's word) accusation of rape against him.
Anonymous Ignoramus @3:53P, of course TDH doesn't have to employ some verbal formula before we can say he defended Roy Moore. But he must give some support to or approval of the Gadsden Mall Creeper's involvement with underage girls. If you could quote TDH doing that, then you would do so, and then you would thereby have a point. But you can't, so you don't.
DeleteClear now?
And that took dozens and dozens of posts (with movie reviews!) to make this “point”?
DeleteMethinks thou dost protest too much. Like Somerby.
Child marriage is a serious slavery issue:
Deletehttp://www.endslaverynow.org/act/action-library/educate-yourself-about-organizations-fighting-forced-child-marriage
Girls are forced to marry much older men after they have first been abused by them. The abuse starts with the kind of behavior Moore engaged in with girls, as a pattern of stalking and so-called "dating". Such marriages occur to give the baby a name or to repair the family "honor" but they are more destructive than the initial abuse. Moore himself admits to admiring his later wife when she was at his preferred age. That doesn't excuse his prior behavior stalking teens, using his authority to call them out of high school class, rolling around in underwear on a blanket, following them around the mall to the point of having security called on him, never mind the accusation of attempted rape in the car. A grown man has no business pursuing young girls and he himself should have refocused his interest, recognizing the wrongness of his actions.
And this is the man Somerby defended from supposed press misconduct, as the press attempted to portray Moore as he really was, a man who preyed on children. And it doesn't matter at all whether the mamas approved when their 18 yo daughters were asked out by him. That is a red herring.
Tolerance of deviance by the movies or the modeling industry doesn't excuse child abuse. Somerby should have been arguing the other side of this, if he cared about the children (those beautiful kids he used to teach but now hides behind).
But WH intern sucking Bubba the Demigod's 50 y.o. dick, right in his office, is, of course, perfectly fine. Consenting adults, end of story. Nothing to see here.
DeleteYes, it matters whether someone is an adult or not when it comes to consensual sex.
DeleteUh-huh. And that's why marrying an 18 y.o. is a Crime Against Humanity. Got it.
DeleteThanks for reminding us of Crimes Against Humanity during a time when the President's criminal negligence led to the deaths of 120,000 Americans.
Delete... never mind the accusation of attempted rape....
DeleteThere's a sentence you don't read every day.
Seriously now, what the hell is wrong with you? The first thing the press should mind is the credible accusation of rape. They didn't. Instead they wanted to focus on the 14-year age difference between the Gadsden Mall Creeper and his wife. Which, of course, is the last thing to focus on because it's nobody else's business.
Is it creepy that the GMC admired a 14-year old girl whom he married ten years later? You bet. Is that a good reason not to vote for him? Sure, but that thought crime is down a ways on my list, certainly below the fact that he's a christo-fascist theocrat with no respect for the Constitution or the rule of law. YMMV, and apparently does. To each his or her own.
Parents of young girls in Gadsden, Alabama should have locked their daughters up rather than allowed them to go to the mall when Roy Moore was on the prowl. And it's fair to point to his mall stalking, but Roy Moore is not the cause of underage marriage, and his own marriage to a 24-year old is none of your business, even if he was 38 at the time.
All TDH did was to point out that the GMC's marriage is none of your business (or that of any other prurient bluenose), especially when credible accusations of rape were leveled at the man.
Fercyranoutloud, you're making Mao (our Village Troll) look good.
And that took dozens and dozens of posts...?
DeleteDozens and dozens? The search tools aren't the best, but I can find 17 blog entries that reference "Roy Moore." Some of those are false drops: they mention Moore in the context of the alleged surge of black voters who ensured Moore's defeat or Moore's relationship to Al Franken's resignation.
So maybe a dozen posts about the reporting on Moore's peculiar, er, dating proclivities. Out of 584 for 2017, the year of the election that sent Doug Jones to the Senate.
Now maybe that's too many, but the topic sure seems to loom larger in your mind than in the real world, if blogspot.com can be called such.
Which of us is protesting too much?
It took 12 posts for Somerby to complain because the press was writing about Moore's very young wife? Do you read what you write?
DeleteSo now we're down to 12 for the value "dozens and dozens." It took no more than 12 posts to complain that the press was ignoring a "credible" (TDH's word) claim of rape against Moore. Considering TDH's history of obsessiveness on various subjects, how many complaints about ignoring rape would be OK with you?
DeleteNotable that even Republicans found Roy Moore repulsive. But Somerby tried hard to get Roy Moore elected. Naturally, since Somerby is a Trumptard.
DeleteEvery teenage girl I knew in the 70s who had a boyfriend had one much that was older than they were. And most of them the GIRLS pursued.
DeleteSomerby's big point about Roy Moore was that only two of the so-called victims complained about sexual misconduct -- not seven -- and that of those seven, most were over 18 at the time.
But who cares about the facts when starting a sex panic is loads more gun. Right? Oh, and of those two, one was completely discredited when it turns out that she completely forged a yearbook vitation.
And, Judge Moore sanctimony led directly to Al Franken leaving. Good work people!
Moore was NEVER accused of rape.
DeleteSome of you people just make this stuff up -- which was Bob's point.
I stand corrected. Roy Moore was accused of child molestation by a woman who was 14 years old at the time. She does not allege penetration.
DeleteBut by all means lets give the media a pass for concentrating on Moore's marriage to his wife when she was 24.
Trump pretending he doesn't understand why the Lee statues must come down, shows how deep he is.
ReplyDeleteBut what about racist American paper currency, dear Bob?
ReplyDeleteMay I suggest that the wokies should stop touching those bills on account of images of slaveowners and racists (like Mr Lincoln) traumatizing 'em wokies.
It sure sounds like the right to do, dear Bob. And we here would be happy to take some of those horrible things off their wokie hands.
LOL.
DeleteMao is really sweating the end of white supremacy.
Mao was better when he was pretending he hated the establishment, and wasn't just another in an endless parade of Right-wing bigots.
“We humans! We care about statues and Halloween garb. Do we give a flying fark about kids?”
ReplyDeleteThis might be a more trenchant observation if Somerby himself didn’t spend the bulk of his time with articles about statues and Halloween garb.
As long as he is unwilling to avert his gaze from them and seek out writing that is concerned with the welfare of kids and to acknowledge that people can care about all of this simultaneously, he gets to claim that “we humans” don’t care about kids.
Psychologists, especially therapists, counselors and clinicians, are taught that all behavior occurs within a specific context and that the context must be considered along with the behavior itself. Historians are taught that judgement of historical events outside of the time period and milieu in which they occurred is "ahistorical", not a good way to evaluate what happened.
ReplyDeleteDo we tear down the city of Rome because Romans had slaves from all subjugated Roman territories. Do we leave Ireland off the map because it held British slaves, and similar leave Britain off the map for holding Irish slaves? There are slaves in the US currently and an active worldwide slave trade that you generally only hear about in college classes. Slavery is certainly bad, but it has been happening since recorded history and it has happened everywhere, by all peoples. So tearing down all the statues of people who were affected by slavery means tearing down all statues, and renaming all buildings.
Slavery is bad and I am 100% in favor of eliminating it. I contribute money to the United Nations to advance such efforts. I wear costumes of animals at Halloween (another form of slavery according to Bill Maher & PETA). But why cannot our activists attack slavery directly instead of pulling down statues?
Statues of Confederate generals are a different matter because they are symbols of a highly active white supremacy movement and thus need to be repudiated. It has nothing to do with history and everything to do with the embrace of such symbols by white supremacists. They DO need to come down because of current activities by racists. Trump either didn't understand that, or he pretended not to understand when he broadened the topic to Jefferson and Washington.
Somerby should worry more about the attempts to create a White Supremacist homeland in the eastern part of that far-Western state.
Historians are taught that judgement of historical events outside of the time period and milieu in which they occurred is "ahistorical", not a good way to evaluate what happened.
DeleteGood thing we're not trying "to evaluate what happened", eh?
So tearing down all the statues of people who were affected by slavery means tearing down all statues, and renaming all buildings.
Good thing we're not tearing down statues "of people who were affected by slavery", eh?
Slavery is bad and I am 100% in favor of eliminating it.
Good to know. You got one right.
But why cannot our activists attack slavery directly instead of pulling down statues?
Because literal slavery isn't a problem they face?
Statues of Confederate generals are a different matter
That's two right!
They DO need to come down because of current activities by racists.
Aw, darn. And you were doing so well. They should never have gone up, and given that they did, they should have come down long ago, independent of "current activities."
Trump either didn't understand that, or he pretended not to understand....
At least you ended on a high note.
A regular person would tell me that he disagreed with what I said, and then explain his own reasoning. You pretend that you are the judge of all creation and score my points as if you were grading an exam. See the difference?
DeleteI ended by suggesting that Washington not be split into two parts to form a white supremacist homeland. No comment on that one? If I were named deadrat, I would now complain that you cannot read properly because you don't know what is truly the end of my essay.
@deadrat
Delete“They should never have gone up,”
So should they come down now?
It’s likely that Somerby would prefer to keep them, because this move to eliminate them angers the “white working class” that Somerby cherishes.
It’s the same reason he wants to replace the word “racism” with “dumbness.”
I'm not the judge of all creation, but I think I'm allowed to judge the comments you make here. As you're allowed and welcome to judge mine. I scored your comment and found some merit to it. Also some demerits for it. I'm not sure if you consider yourself a "regular person," but is it not clear why I found your reasoning faulty? Tell me what you didn't understand.
DeleteOK, I ignored your claim about "attempts to create a White Supemacist homeland" in eastern Washington state. Are you sure you're not thinking of Idaho? What attempts? Is eastern Washington trying to secede from the US? Is eastern Washington trying to form its own state? Do you know what that would take?
Eastern Washington is reliably Republican, but it's not entirely so. Most counties there went for Trump in 2016 by margins of 2:1 to 3:1, but that leaves 25% to 33% of the electorate Democrats. And Clinton carried far eastern Whitman county easily. Eastern Washington comprises two Congressonal districts, the 4th and the 5th. That means that each has a total population less than Hillary Clinton's vote total in King County (Seattle) alone. So tell me why anyone should take this white homeland seriously.
mh, yeah, they should come down for the same reason they never should have gone up.
DeleteIs this hard to figure?
deadrat,
DeleteThank you for always being here to read Somerby's mind, and explain his thinking.
"The State of Liberty is a proposed U.S. state to be formed out of Eastern Washington. Enabling legislation was introduced in the Washington State House of Representatives in January 2019."
DeleteMatt Shea (R) has introduced a Bill in Congress to establish it as the 51st state.
Deadrat, you should be reading David Neiwert.
Great idea, to segregate from zombie-controlled areas.
DeleteAnonymous Ignoramus @6:17P, You're welcome, but can you point to which ungrounded inference I've made about TDH in this thread? I thought I was discussing the absurdities in the comment by the Anonymous Ignoramus @3:37P.
DeleteThe State of Liberty is a right-wing, Christian identitarian fever dream with little of the political support it requires to become a reality.
DeleteThe proposed State of Liberty would comprise the 20 (if my old eyes don't deceive me) easternmost counties of the state. The nutcases proposing the split say they have the support of 16 counties, presumably not including the one that voted for Clinton in 2016. Doesn't matter, since the bill has to clear both the Washington House, which has 57 Democrats in the majority to 41 Republicans in the minority, and the Washington Senate, which has 27 Democrats in the majority and 22 in the minority (21 Republican and one renegade Democrat who caucuses with the Republicans).
The Governor is a Democrat, and he presumably would veto any split of the state, and it takes 2/3 of each chamber of override his veto. But this isn't the steepest climb for the Liberty nutcases. There are about ten (again if my eyes serve me) legislative districts in the western half of Washington with Republican legislators (2 reps per district; 1 senator). Do you figure some of them wouldn't want the split? How about all of them?
Assuming the Washington legislature would ever go for the Liberty State, Congress must also approve. This would take a majority of the House, which is controlled by 233 Democrats. Republicans number 199. (There's 1 Libertarian and 4 vacant seats.) And a filibuster-proof number of Senators (i.e, 60). The Republicans currently have 53 Senators.
I've been assuming that no Democrats would endorse splitting Washington State, which right now puts the dream in the impossible category. I'd put nothing past Republicans, but the Republican state rep who introduced the bill to form the new state, was suspended last year from the Republican caucus.
David Neiwert is an expert on the alt-right and white supremacists, and I'm sure he'd agree that the Liberty nutters are dangerous, but not because they wield any political power. Do you have information that says otherwise?
Somerby was hinting that the leftists would force the State of Washington to be renamed because George Washington had slaves. Do you really think that is more likely than that the state would be split to provide a white supremacist homeland, given that bills have already been introduced at the state and national levels to do so? How much progress have those leftists made toward their supposed goals?
DeleteNeiwart suggests that the alt-right in Washington is far more dangerous to our democracy than the lefties, and he tracks them for a living, so yes, there is evidence of that. For a recent example remember that the Bundy supporters who occupied the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge got off, found not guilty by a jury of their peers, who you can bet were not BLM protesters.
So who should we worry about? Somerby is once again on the conservative side, suggesting we worry about the out-of-control left who wishes to rename the state, while the right is actively trying to maim it.
You are working way too hard to make Somerby seem rational when he clearly is not.
If you have read your history of Germany, you would know that Hitler's party got only a few seats at first and was considered a joke, then it won more and wasn't funny any more, but then it was too late to stop him. So, O'Shea may seem funny to you now, but Trump is our president and how funny is that?
DeleteSomerby was hinting that the leftists would force the State of Washington to be renamed because George Washington had slaves.
DeleteHe was? He said he saw a professor on TV discussing the issue the night before. TDH has a history of scorning professors for being feckless.
Do I think it's more likely that Washington state would rename itself than it would split itself? I think both outcomes are vanishingly unlikley. I don't care if some nutcase introduced bills in legislatures. I gave you an analysis of the political forces lined up against these bills. Did you bother to read it? What gives you the idea that these bills will ever do anything except die in committee?
Neiwart suggests that the alt-right in Washington is far more dangerous to our democracy than the lefties....
Absolutely, but not because they have anything close to the political clout to split the state of Washington. It's because they are armed christofascist nutcases. Can you see the difference?
So who should we worry about? Somerby is once again on the conservative side, suggesting we worry about the out-of-control left....
Where does he say that? He says we should stop paying attention to things like "statues and Halloween garb" and pay more attenton to to "what happens, and what doesn't happen, inside urban schools."
What's stopping you from simply reading what TDH writes?
Where does he say that? Here, he says it first:
Delete"Trump's prophecy was mocked at the time, but serious questions now fly about concerning statues of Washington—even concerning the well-known name of a well-known western state! "
Then later he says: "We did see a professor last night discussing the triage of statues, and the name of a western state."
How is this "concern" conservative? Try this:
https://www.alternet.org/2020/06/ignore-the-slippery-slope-propaganda-in-the-debate-over-monuments-to-white-supremacy/
YOU need to read what TDH writes too.
Somerby never says anything whatsoever directly. But he raised those halloween costumes and statues in order to complain about the out-of-control left which doesn't really care about children, just statues. If you don't get that Somerby is saying this, it isn't us with the reading problem.
And I believe we must pay attention to what the alt-right is doing because it is truly dangerous, and O'Shea's election is a sign that they are gaining strength. So you can mock them at your peril (and ours).
Somerby never says anything whatsoever directly.
DeleteSometimes he can be maddeningly oblique, and sometimes he takes days to say in several blog entries that which needs no more than a paragraph, but most of the time he's obsessively repetitively blunt: people act tribally, including liberals and the media.
You wrote, "Somerby was hinting that the leftists would force the State of Washington to be renamed because George Washington had slaves." But what he actually says is that "serious questions now fly about ... the well-known name of a well-known state!"
His point is clearly stated further on in the entry: "[W]e're not sure we've ever seen a serious discussion of what happens, and what doesn't happen, inside urban schools."
Is there any evidence that TDH thinks that the state of Washington is in serious danger of being renamed by leftists? You may claim that's what he's hinting he's worried about, but what he actually says is that we spend our time talking about unserious things instead of important things.
I think the alt-right is dangerous because they're heavily-armed, insane, christofascists. They plan massacres, they shoot federal officers, and they infiltrate peaceful demonstrations to foment violence. But what they don't have is political support. Any legislator can introduce a bill, and the Liberty State clown who introduced his split-the-state bill in the Washington state house of representatives was repudiated by his party (Republican, of course) and stripped of his committee assignments.
I gave you a detailed analysis of the political roadblocks to the alt-right getting its own state from eastern Washington. They're currently insurmountable, so that can't be why the alt-right is dangerous.
Whatever danger they pose is a clear and present one. They're monstrous and wear it proudly. I'd argue that a bigger threat to our democracy are the people like our Cecelia who walk amongst as humans. They're our smiling neighbors and quick-witted fellow commenters who will stick with Trump's treason, grift, lawlessness, and mendacity because they just can't vote for Biden. 'Cause that would mean endorsing every Democratic position ever taken by that party, dontchaknow.
Speaking of state names, what about Indiana?
DeletePut it on the block too!
We could call it North Kentucky just in time to celebrate the centenary of the Klan controlling the Indiana General Assembly.
DeleteThe kids Somerby taught are not the same age as the kids depicted in that video. If you look at it, both the girl who is being harassed and the kids harassing her are all teenagers, not 5th or 6th graders. Kids enter 5th grade at 10 and 6th grade at 11. Adolescents are different than these younger kids. It is why middle school teachers get so much sympathy from those who teach younger children.
ReplyDeleteBut Somerby reaches in order to establish some credibility on this topic. If he were instead thinking about the kids, he might understand why older teens, who are in the midst of anxiety over identity issues, might be more concerned about race. Teens are also concerned about agency and independence, thus might be more likely to instigate an action against someone perceived as a threat than a younger child would be. Teens are notoriously confused, while also able to commit adult-sized mistakes without the judgment to prevent them. Younger children, not so much.
But Somerby was no doubt studying philosophy when he should have been taking a child development class, like real teachers are required to do (and Teach for America considered unnecessary).
Few teenagers are in crisis over identity issues.
DeleteWhen btw did everything start to be deemed "harassment"? Maybe too the solution is to keep K-8 schools or 7-9 jr highs again?
Can you imagine all the black school children saying, "Thank goodness the Lee statue is gone. Now, I can catch up with the Asian kids academically."
ReplyDeleteMy point is that these statues should probably be taken down. (They were erected at the behest of Democrats BTW) However, taking these statues down won't improve the lives of black Americans in any direct way.
I imagine all the little white children saying, "Thank goodness for the Lee statue. Now the South can rise again."
DeleteThe statues benefit the pigeons but their maintenance is a drag on the city budgets, which should outrage you David.
David,
DeleteTaking down the statues is a way to troll Conservatives. Jus like putting them up was a way to troll Liberals.
Also, don't you worry your pretty little head, we're going to do things to help black people now, and you and the rest of the Confederacy won't be able to do anything about it.
OTOH, you are 100% correct that Black Lives Matter.
David,
DeleteYour support for a huge corporate tax increase to fund education programs for black children is greatly appreciated.
We need more Conservatives like you.
David,
DeleteWe don't suppress their votes, so there's that.
---------------------
"caused the number of black murder victims to skyrocket"
Nice. Blaming the victims. You know fully well that this was caused by an extortion racket run by the police. Google : "Ferguson effect"
I think it's called that, because the police were pissed that they were being held accountable for violating the First, Fourth, and 14th Amendments of the Constitution in Ferguson.
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Covid infections setting new records around the country
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