WARS: Murders, fentanyl, the terrorist watch list?

WEDNESDAY, MARCH 13, 2024

The main things the senator said: Senator Britt got blown off the map by yesterday's Robert Hur hearings. Briefly, let us say this about that:

Did President Biden exhibit a memory problem when he was interviewed by Hur?

Almost surely, there's no real way to evaluate that claim based on the lengthy transcript. There will also be no final way to evaluate that claim if the audiotapes are released.

As with everything else, the red tribe would cherry-pick certain talking points. Our blue tribe would settle on certain others. 

Under current arrangements, such conflicts are never resolved, or even addressed. We can only hope that the audiotapes will stay wherever they are.

Once Hur's report was made public, Candidate Biden was going to take a hit from what Hur had written. It would have been best for Democrats to accept that fact, then to counter with Hur's graphic account of the fact that Donald J. Trump's behavior with classified material was much worse than Biden's.

Instead, House Democrats at yesterday's hearing managed to generate another talking-point for the rival red tribe. They did that with their hapless claim that Hur had "exonerated" Biden. 

For reasons any third grader could be made to understand, prosecutors rarely do any such thing. In this instance, Hur didn't "exonerate" Biden in his official report. 

By grilling Hur on this point, Democrats induced him to make an explicit statement to that effect. In so doing, they created another videotaped talking point for red tribe warriors to herald.

On this morning's Fox & Friends, the friends were glorying in that videotaped statement by Hur. This is the way we human being create the divisions which lead on to wars, even in these demographically complex modern times.

Back to Senator Britt! As recently as Sunday, her refusal to relent on his prior misstatement was still on the public agenda. 

In Thursday night's official GOP response to President Biden's State of the Union address, the apparently ambitious young solon had authored a grossly misleading claim. 

By Sunday, everyone knew that Britt's presentation had been grossly misleading. That included Shannon Bream, host of Fox News Sunday.

But alas! As we noted yesterday, when Bream gave Britt a chance to clarify her misleading claim, Britt doubled down on the bogus claim instead. This is the way the game is now played as our the "thought leaders" of our flailing nation proceed ahead with a very dangerous political war.

Britt doubled down on her deception—and that's how the game is now played. Yesterday, the incident was blown off the public stage by the renewed dispute concerning Hur's report. 

Every day, a new skirmish is invented as our two tribes wage their war. That said, the Hur report will go away—and Senator Britt's deliberate act of deception already has.

What won't go away are the main things Britt said last Thursday night, and then again in her appearance on Fox News Sunday.

Those statements won't be going away because they dealt with the southern border—and the southern border will almost surely be the main "issue" in this year's presidential campaign. 

Britt's allegations will be advanced again and again, by everyone within the red tribe from Donald J. Trump on down. Other disputes will come and go, but those allegations about the border won't be going away.

The mains things Britt said won't be going away. So what in the world did she say?

Let's set aside the misleading anecdote Britt offered on Thursday night. What were the main allegations she made that night? As you can see in this transcript of her remarks, her main allegations were these:

BRITT (3/7/24): The true, unvarnished state of our union begins and ends with this: Our families are hurting. Our country can do better.

And you don’t have to look any further than the crisis at our southern border to see it. President Biden inherited the most secure border of all time. But minutes after taking office, he suspended all deportations, halted construction of the border wall, and announced a plan to give amnesty to millions.

We know that President Biden didn’t just create this border crisis. He invited it with 94 executive actions in his first 100 days.

[...]

President Biden’s border crisis is a disgrace. It’s despicable. And it’s almost entirely preventable.

[...]

From fentanyl poisonings to horrific murders, there are empty chairs tonight at kitchen tables just like this one because of President Biden’s senseless border policies. 

Just think about Laken Riley. In my neighboring state of Georgia, this beautiful, 22-year-old nursing student went out on a jog one morning. But she never got the opportunity to return home. She was brutally murdered by one of the millions of illegal border crossers President Biden chose to release into our homeland.

Fentanyl poisonings? Horrific murders? All "because of President Biden’s senseless border policies?"

These allegations won't be going away—and Britt didn't even include the red tribe's persistent allegations about individuals crossing the border who are on the terrorist watch list.

Those allegations will continue right through November's election. On Fox News Sunday, the ambitious young senator went into more detail.

If you want to see what she said you can start by clicking here. Headline included, here's a summary of her allegations, as offered in The Hill

Katie Britt defends human trafficking story in State of the Union response amid backlash

[...]

The senator brushed off the criticism [of her grossly misleading story], claiming the story is emblematic of the president’s border policy.

“I’ve said, in [Biden’s] first 100 days he had 94 executive actions, and those executive actions didn’t just create the crisis. They invited it,” Britt said in a “Fox News Sunday” interview with Shannon Bream. 

“The truth is, and the media knows that they’re not covering it, that human trafficking has gone up under President Biden,” she continued. “If you look back under 2018, it was a $500 million industry, human trafficking by the drug cartels. It is now a $13 billion dollar industry. Shannon, the drug cartels are winning under this. This is a story of what is happening now.”

"The media" aren't covering this, the ambitious young senator said. 

"There are victims all throughout our country," Britt further said. She said the media are taking a dive, but "the drug cartels are winning" under Biden's policies.

Britt even included a very large dollar figure designed to show how bad things have become. Human trafficking is now a $13 billion industry, the ambitious young solon said.

Claims of that type about the border will continue right through November. The hubbub about Hur will subside, but those claims won't be going away.

Full disclosure! As we'll note tomorrow, Britt was still playing a bit fast and loose with the dollar figures she cited. 

In fact, though, "the media" have largely avoided this topic in recent years. O at least, our own blue tribe's most beloved stars have relentlessly disappeared the border as they've pursued the one topic they truly love:

Trump Trump Trump Trump Jail!

Full disclosure! Even after Britt appeared on Fox News Sunday, our stars continued to avoid her major claims about the border. Tomorrow, we'll return to Paul Krugman's column to see the way this works.

That said, every day it's another dispute—another point concerning which our nation's two warring populations will hear two vastly different accounts.

Our blue tribe has reacted to Britt by trashing her for the grossly misleading anecdote on which she doubled down. As for the main allegations she made, we're still largely running around with our blue heads struck in the sand.

No, Virginia! Hur didn't "exonerate" President Biden. (Prosecutors rarely do such things.)

That flap is going to fade away. We'll be left with GOP claims about the border, and with Hector's ancient warning:

The day will come when sacred Troy must die.

Tomorrow: Biden agrees with Britt!


103 comments:

  1. "Almost surely, there's no real way to evaluate that claim based on the lengthy transcript. There will also be no final way to evaluate that claim if the audiotapes are released."

    How better to evaluate a person's memory than by asking them a lot of questions about the past?

    Somerby includes the weasel word "final" because as someone gets older, their memory tends to deteriorate, so his statement can be technically true -- and none of us knows the future. But that then makes Somerby's statement vacuous and inane, useless as a statement of fact.

    If Somerby were honest, he would admit that the transcript shows that Biden's memory is fine, sufficient to do the job of president, even quite strong given his age (Hur praised Biden's memory during the interview, calling it photographic). Biden even answered the question about his son's death, giving the date. What more does Somerby need as proof?

    Somerby's unwillingness to admit the obvious comes across now as goofy, as a stretch to retain the slurs and not correct the record about Biden's mental state. Why would a liberal work so hard to support a false criticism of the candidate he says he supports? Perhaps because Somerby doesn't actually support Biden? Perhaps because it is part of a facade he presents here, portraying himself as liberal in order to con the rubes and undermine the liberal candidate's campaign?

    Real psychologists evaluate real patients by asking them questions like the ones posed to Biden. And they come up with real diagnoses about dementia and memory loss and even amnesia. On what basis does Somerby say we cannot evaluate whether Biden suffered memory loss during his interview with Hur? None. Somerby has no basis for saying this at all.

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  2. Steve Lawrence has died.

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  3. "As with everything else, the red tribe would cherry-pick certain talking points. Our blue tribe would settle on certain others. "

    Here Somerby implies that the "blue tribe" is cherry-picking when it wishes to use the questions Biden correctly answered as evidence that his memory is intact. Talk about goofy! But the blue tribe isn't only using the correct ones to argue that Biden is fine, it is using the ABSENCE of incorrect ones, the relative absence of saying "I don't remember" as evidence too.

    But the main point is that Hur misrepresented the content of the interview in order to portray Biden as an addled elderly man, when that is clearly contradicted by the transcript. Hur lied in order to promote a right wing view of Biden as too old to govern. And now Somerby is doing the same.

    We can understand that Hur, a right wing zealot, might do this. But Somerby supposedly supports Biden, so why would he further Hur's lies by defending what the right wing did? Hur said Biden didn't remember his son's death. That is directly contradicted by the transcript. But Somerby calls this cherry-picking? Shame on Somerby!

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    1. Why did Merritt Garland appoint a "right-wing" zealot? Seems from your point of you that was a pretty major blunder. But, apparently the right-wing zealot didn't come through - Rep. Jordan and the MAGA's are outraged that he didn't recommend prosecution or impeachment of Biden for holding this "top secret" documents.

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    2. In an effort to look non-partisan, confident Biden had done nothing criminal, not expecting any DOJ person to lie.

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    3. Garland is continuing the nonsense Third Way politics that have proven a colossal failure for Dems. Thankfully most of the Party has moved on, and the ones that cling to that misguided project are dying off.

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  4. Hur wasn't able to find any crimes Biden could be charged with. Patriotic Americans, who love the USA, are proud of that fact. That Republicans are not, should come as no surprise to anyone who is paying at least an iota of attention.

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  5. Somerby pretends that the left has cherry-picked Hur's interrogation to claim that it exonerates Biden. Then he says:

    "We can only hope that the audiotapes will stay wherever they are."

    Why would any liberal hope this, when the tapes DO exonerate Biden. The transcript shows that. The tapes and the transcript show that Hur lied in order to portray Biden as unable to remember key facts. That works to the benefit of Biden and his campaign, despite what Somerby is trying to say here to confuse matters.

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  6. Perhaps Somerby didn't watch the hearing, where Hur was eviscerated by the Democratic members?

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    1. He was actually eviscerated by his own words.

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    2. Somerby’s mad because the Dems flipped the switch on the Repubs and turned their hearing into a roast of Trump and Hur, so he rushes to his blog and breathlessly tries to change the narrative, assuming most people are dopes or rubes.

      One can sense the increasing consternation Somerby feels at the failure of his blog to have the desired impact, his posts get more ignorant and shrill by the day.

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  7. Trump has autographed a large poster of Laken Riley with a Sharpie. Does anyone find that to be an appropriate response? Does it show respect to Riley and her family, empathy for what happened to her?

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  8. "Senator Britt's deliberate act of deception"

    What "deception", Bob? Are you saying there is no human trafficking across the Southern border?

    "Almost surely, there's no real way to evaluate that claim based on the lengthy transcript. There will also be no final way to evaluate that claim if the audiotapes are released."

    Right. On the other hand, Mr. Trump's mental condition is perfectly obvious to you.

    Are you, by chance, one of those who call themselves "liberal"? That would explain everything.

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    1. You know what deception asshole.

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    2. I know psycho-moonbats.

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    3. That's how psycho-moonbats say "Hello".

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    4. Takes one to know one, 1:58.

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    5. I’m a psycho-moonbat, and I plan to vote for Trump. MAGA!

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  9. " President Biden inherited the most secure border of all time. But minutes after taking office, he suspended all deportations, halted construction of the border wall, and announced a plan to give amnesty to millions.

    We know that President Biden didn’t just create this border crisis. He invited it with 94 executive actions in his first 100 days."

    To me, these accusations are much more important than who was President when a particular bad illegal immigrant came into the US. Are these accusations accurate? AFAIK they are. They say that Biden went out of his way to put the border into a crisis.

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    1. “AFAIK” — say no more.

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    2. It is a lie that the border was the most secure of all time. Trump had a huge surge at the end of his term, which continued into Biden’s term.

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    3. David needs to fact check more. Biden dodn’t sto all deportations.

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    4. didn’t stop

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    5. “False. Biden did not stop all deportations during his first 100 days in office. His administration attempted to implement a pause affecting some immigrants, focusing on select groups such as those suspected of or who had engaged in terrorism and espionage. The pause was blocked in the courts.“

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    6. David, an honest, good faith question: you repeatedly present false or misleading claims, like you did today, and then when corrected, you do not adjust your claims, but merely keep on repeating them - why do you repeat these false claims even after being corrected?

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    7. "They say"
      LOL!

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    8. Answer to 5:14: David is a right winger. Honesty and facts play no part in his world.

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  10. "These allegations won't be going away—and Britt didn't even include the red tribe's persistent allegations about individuals crossing the border who are on the terrorist watch list."

    Yes, they will be "going away" because they false allegations are being addressed by the Biden campaign. They won't go away from Fox News or MAGAdom, but nothing can dislodge those people's false beliefs. But the rebuttals will be heard by those the Democrats are targeting with ads and other campaign activities, the Independents and Undecideds and the Haley voters, RINOs and Never-Trumpers. These are the votes the Democrats are hoping to peel off, and they will be more than sufficient to defeat Trump, especially given that there are more Democrats than Republican voters in our nation.

    Why does Somerby keep saying such dumb things here? Is it because the Republicans are left only with dumb arguments, given that they are trying to elect a demented candidate who is only supported by the stupidest people on earth, including Katie Britt? They have nothing to work with but fear and lies.

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  11. As I said yesterday, I thought there was a bill to address this stuff. Tell me again, what happened to that bill? Perhaps that will allow you to gauge the relative desire of Republicans like Britt to solve the problems.

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    1. The problem with that bill was that it included billions of dollars for other things that have nothing to do with the border. Right? You're not presenting this as if the bill was only about the border. Right?

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    2. James Lankford, a co-sponsor, is a very conservative gentleman. It was a bipartisan bill, that got tanked because Trump doesn’t want the problem solved. It’s bad for his campaign.

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    3. It was tanked because Trump went thumb down on it, no other reason.

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  12. “ the media" have largely avoided this topic in recent years.”

    If anyone honestly believes this, I have a subscription to the New York Times for sale for the low price of the Brooklyn Bridge.

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  13. To the fans: can you tell us even now whether Somerby credits Britt with valid points about the border?

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    1. He does not explicitly endorse or credit her points as valid. This is a commentary on the state of political debate and media coverage not a validation of the accuracy or fairness of Britt's points.

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    2. I see. So, if her claims are false, why should the media give them air time?

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    3. The speech is an election tradition. A hat tip to the fairness doctrine (now abolished by Republicans).

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    4. He does not explicitly endorse or credit her points as false either.

      Giving air time to her main points, valid or otherwise, would allow for a more nuanced understanding and debate of the issues, beyond the polarized reactions to the manner of her presentation or the accuracy of her anecdotes.

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    5. “ a more nuanced understanding and debate of the issues”

      You mean, like when Britt engaged in a deliberate deception, which was the focal point of her speech? Her entire speech was deception. It would be best if the blogger acknowledged that.

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    6. I appreciate your curiosity about what the post is trying to say.

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    7. Sure…let’s discuss Britt’s lies, and call them that.

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    8. If you can do it in an interesting, intelligent way, I would love to!

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    9. Somerby deliberately tries to say as little as possible in the most ambiguous way possible. It makes it difficult to discuss anything he says. And then, even when you directly quote Somerby, certain of his fanboy trolls will insist he didn't say what he obviously said.

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    10. What is the direct quote?

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    11. What is the direct quote to which you are referring?

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    12. All of them. People here habitually quote before discussing.

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    13. >The speech is an election tradition. A hat tip to the fairness doctrine (now abolished by Republicans).>

      Polished off in Obama administration:
      https://www.britannica.com/topic/Fairness-Doctrine

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  14. “Through a whole-of-DHS effort in alignment with President Biden’s National Drug Control Strategy, the Department has stopped more fentanyl and arrested more individuals for fentanyl-related crimes in the last two years than in the previous five years combined. More than 90% of fentanyl interdicted is stopped at Ports of Entry (POEs) where cartels attempted to smuggle it through, primarily in vehicles driven by U.S. citizens.”

    https://www.dhs.gov/news/2023/12/22/fact-sheet-dhs-front-lines-combating-illicit-opioids-including-fentanyl

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    1. The real issue with drugs like fentanyl is with the person that buys and uses the drug, and the conditions that created that behavior, and that’s all on America and Americans, mostly red tribe members.

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  15. It’s a tragedy that Laken Riley was killed. It’s unsurprising that it is being politicized by the republicans.

    It was also a tragedy when 26 people, mostly children, were murdered at Sandy Hook.

    It was also a tragedy when 60 people were killed in Las Vegas in a mass shooting.

    (The list could go on, and on, and on…)

    Of course, Democrats were told by republicans that it was unbecoming to discuss those incidents and any policy issues one might enact to help, because that would be politicizing them.

    And so it goes.

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  16. The US admits one million legal immigrants each year. They are properly vetted for health and criminal background. We should try to allow only vetted immigrants.

    Even Pres Obama paid lip service to this principle.

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    1. Tell us again who is giving lip service to border security, after the GOP tanked a bipartisan border bill that was months in the making?

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    2. The principle of asylum is established by law.

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    3. . bipartisan ?

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  17. Come on, David, you can do better. Defend Katie Britt’s entire SOTU response. And Cecelia, where are you? Defend that speech!

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    1. You have to say her name three times in quick succession.

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    2. President Trump did an excellent job on
      border security. Biden did an awful job. Various quibbles cannot hide this reality. Illegal immigration ia losing issue for the Dems

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    3. David,
      If it keeps food cost inflation down, it's a winner.
      Just kidding. No one really cares about inflation, now that it's been tamed by Biden.

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    4. Demonstrably, Biden has done a better job with border security than Trump. Trump only made it worse. Every election Republicans lean on the immigration issue and yet they’ve lost the popular vote every time this century.

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    5. "Defend that speech!"

      Why?

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    6. Because it can be amusing to observe a member of the red tribe defend the indefensible.

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    7. @2:04 — conservative sources say people care a lot about today’s high prices. Evidently your sources say the opposite. This might be resolved by a survey. Bottom line: I don’t know whether the inflation issue helps Biden, hurts Biden, or is a non-issue.

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    8. “ Illegal immigration ia losing issue for the Dems”

      Suozzi on line 1, David.

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    9. It is only a losing issue to those stupid enough to be upset by Republican scare tactics. Inflation is a non-issue.

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    10. David,
      Do all lives matter, or just black lives?

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    11. 5:30,
      How much could Conservatives really care about inflation, when they are trying to get rid of such a huge chunk of our agricultural labor? Do they really think this will drive food prices down?

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    12. @9:42 AM

      We all know that the Democrat party loves slavery. We don't need another confession from you.

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  18. So Dogface, Pied Piper, or anyone...
    Do you agree that the issue of Trump's criminality (if you even see it that way) is hyped by the left, and that his approach to what's legal poses no problem to the Country? (and please, don't tell me Bob has not said that, it's the idea he is pushing today as he has now for years).
    Just for fun I'll state the obvious, the left press has hardly ignored immigration. They don't treat it has a rallying cry for the uniformed and the racist, which Bob seems to think is just fine...

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    1. Trump's criminality includes sexual abuse, defamation with false statements and inflating the value of his assets to secure favorable loans.

      Do I agree that is hyped by the left. Yes.
      Do I agree his approach to what's legal poses no problem to the country? I don't understand the question.
      Did Bob push this idea today? Not specifically. Today he focuses on the political and media responses to Robert Hur's hearings, Senator Katie Britt's remarks on border policies, and the polarized interpretations of these events by different political factions.

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    2. Donald Trump has not been convicted of any crimes.
      Claiming otherwise is not a hype, but a lie.

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    3. Trump has been found liable and fined for various infractions from fraud to sexual abuse, your semantics game is lame.

      Bob suggests that Britt made valid points, yet fails to substantiate any of them, and even has debunked them at the same time; he lost the plot ages ago.

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    4. What exactly does the original commenter mean by "Trump's criminality"?

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    5. Donald Trump lost some civil litigation cases, where courts sided with the plaintiffs. This has nothing to do with criminality.

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    6. Trump's alleged criminality has been hyped by the left incessantly.

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    7. He lost a civil case where he was convicted of sexual abuse, and another where he was convicted of business fraud.

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    8. 6:36: yeah, just civil cases, sexual abuse and business fraud and what have you. You know, no biggy.

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    9. Can you imagine? Suppose you were interviewing someone to manage a Taco Bell franchise, and they told you that a court found them found liable for sexual assault and financial fraud. Would you ever consider hiring them?

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    10. $550+ million in fines is such a big deal he cannot find the money. The upcoming Stormy Daniels trial has criminal charges. He can also be jailed if he doesn’t stop defaming Carroll.

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    11. The point of the original question still is unclear.

      Trump's alleged criminality is hyped by the left, no question. But what does "his approach to what's legal poses no problem to the Country" mean?

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    12. I think you can rub two brain cells together to figure it out, 7:50. The original commenter means that Somerby has nothing to say about Trump’s flouting of the law and his abuse of the legal system. Somerby merely ascribes it to Trump’s mental illness and the vindictiveness of liberals. This is indeed what you glean from reading Somerby, and he is dead wrong.

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    13. Somerby ascribes Trump’s flouting of the law and his abuse of the legal system to his mental illness and the vindictiveness of liberals?

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    14. Trump's approach to what's legal poses no problem to the country means Somerby has nothing to say about Trump’s flouting of the law and his abuse of the legal system?

      I don't understand what is meant by that.

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    15. I don't think you or the OC have expressed yourselves as well as you could have. No offense.

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    16. Nor have you.

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    17. @Pied Piper 7:12 PM

      Here's another recent lawsuit, from wikipedia:
      "Hearings for the case were held in May 2023. Judge Doughty issued his ruling on July 4, 2023, issuing a preliminary injunction against several Biden administration officials from contacting social media services for "the purpose of urging, encouraging, pressuring, or inducing in any manner the removal, deletion, suppression, or reduction of content containing protected free speech." In his 155-page ruling, Doughty wrote: "The Plaintiffs are likely to succeed on the merits in establishing that the Government has used its power to silence the opposition. Opposition to COVID-19 vaccines; opposition to COVID-19 masking and lockdowns; opposition to the lab-leak theory of COVID-19; opposition to the validity of the 2020 election; opposition to President Biden’s policies; statements that the Hunter Biden laptop story was true; and opposition to policies of the government officials in power. All were suppressed. It is quite telling that each example or category of suppressed speech was conservative in nature. This targeted suppression of conservative ideas is a perfect example of viewpoint discrimination of political speech. American citizens have the right to engage in free debate about the significant issues affecting the country." He continued: "If the allegations made by plaintiffs are true, the present case arguably involves the most massive attack against free speech in United States' history. The plaintiffs are likely to succeed on the merits in establishing that the government has used its power to silence the opposition.""

      Can you imagine, Pied Piper? Would you ever consider voting for these people?

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    18. 3:33, yes, there's a bunch of magat judges out there.

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    19. Goes to the Supreme Court on Monday.

      The Biden White House used its power to silence opposition to Biden’s policies. And we're supposed to worry about Trump being a threat to democracy. Talk about accusations being confessions.

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    20. What goes to the Supreme Court, Boris?

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    21. The censorship case mentioned above, dickhead. .

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  19. "Do you agree that the issue of Trump's criminality (if you even see it that way) is hyped by the left, and that his approach to what's legal poses no problem to the Country? (and please, don't tell me Bob has not said that, it's the idea he is pushing today as he has now for years)."

    I believe this question is incoherent. I might try to answer it anyway if you first give me an exact quote, with a date, to support your assertion that Somerby has said that Trump's "approach to what's legal poses no problem to the Country."

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    1. Somerby has droned on deathlessly about how it’s a mistake to subject Trump to criminal prosecution, if you missed it, you’re either mentally compromised or arguing in bad faith. It’s pretty clear it’s more the latter than the former.

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    2. A claim "Trump's approach to what's legal poses no problem to the Country" is about the perceived impact of his legal approach on the country.

      A claim "it’s a mistake to subject Trump to criminal prosecution" concerns the wisdom of pursuing criminal charges against him.

      Two different things.

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    3. "Somerby has droned on deathlessly about how it’s a mistake to subject Trump to criminal prosecution, if you missed it, you’re either mentally compromised or arguing in bad faith."

      Classic deflection. Instead of simply supporting the assertion that "Somerby says that Trump's approach to what's legal poses no problem to the country," 5:23 changes the topic (see 5:39), pretends non-existent evidence is everywhere so as to excuse the failure to offer supporting quotations, and starts name-calling.

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    4. Somerby has never discussed Trump’s crimes, only claimed he should be pitied not jailed.

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    5. The Piper is simply playing dumb here, sad but not shocking. Bob suggests the left is obsessed with “legal trivia” oppressing the “disordered” Trump almost daily. But he’s a stubborn dunce and won’t admit he’s wrong.

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  20. Here's a question: What would Chris Matthews have said if Al Gore wore neckties as ridiculously long as Donald Trump's?

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    1. People on the left have forgotten and or forgiven Chris Matthews and don’t recall how ghastly he was. He did challenge W on Iraq.

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    2. I haven't forgotten or forgiven.

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