THURSDAY, JUNE 27, 2024
Gail and Bret's hopes and fears: Will something of consequence happen tonight?
We still can't answer that question. In their weekly Conversation for the New York Times, Gail Collins and Bret Stepehens discuss their hopes and their fears.
We're going to let the hopes go first. Here's what Stephens says he wants to hear tonight:
Bret: My first, second and umpteenth goal is to defeat Trump.
[...]
I guess I’ll just cross my fingers. And hope that Biden delivers three simple messages: You can’t entrust your democracy to a man who won’t accept the result of an election. You can’t entrust your freedom to a president who appoints justices who deny your right to choose. And you can’t entrust your security to someone who would happily feed Ukraine to the wolves of the Kremlin.
We don't disagree with those messages, though we're also concerned with the potentially potent messages which could come from Candidate Trump.
Meanwhile, we've edited out some of the fears these two expressed about Candidate Biden's possible performance. Will President Biden seem like a fully capable candidate? In our view, that seems like the evening's top question.
Collins and Stephens are wondering about that too. Here's the way their weekly colloquy starts, headline included:
So It Has Come to This
Gail Collins: Not to be obvious or anything, Bret, but do you have any predictions about the big debate tonight?
Bret Stephens: No predictions, just the wish that both candidates deliver roughly the same performances they put in four years ago: a coherent Joe Biden and an unhinged Donald Trump. My fears are that Trump will rein it in and avoid being goaded into flatly denying the results of the 2020 election—and that Biden will lose it with some obvious memory lapse, slurred sentence or troubling blank stare.
But here’s my question for you: If Biden’s performance is disastrous, will you join me in calling for Democrats to find a new nominee?
Gail: It’d have to be pretty super disastrous, Bret. Sure, if the president suddenly goes blank and stares at the screen in silence or forgets where he’s speaking and starts commending the Democratic congressional candidate from Delaware.
Bret: Or if he says some of the sorts of things he’s said in the past. Such as, “Poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids.”
Gail: But if Biden delivers boring answers that don’t put Trump in the corner he deserves, I’ll be depressed. There’s no way the Democrats are going to refuse to renominate an incumbent president who has been performing his job very well on all fronts.
At that point, Stephens continues as shown above, listing the three messages he hopes Biden delivers.
Stephens is still imagining the possibility that Biden could be replaced as the Democratic nominee. That strikes us as a walk down fantasy lane, leading to a major defeat in the fall.
Meanwhile, Collins claims that President Biden "has been performing his job very well on all fronts." That claim strikes us as strange.
In our view, the president's silence on the day's major issues and events has come straight out of a gloomy, late 50's Bergman film about the silence—the death—of God. We don't know when we've seen a president fail to perform that basic public function to this self-defeating degree.
This has left Stephens hoping for mere coherence, with Collins fearing the depression a boring performance will bring.
How will the president perform tonight? We don't have the slightest idea, but that seems like the evening's top question.
We're prepared to be surprised! Meanwhile, on the Fox News Channel, the monkeys continue to howl, and fling their poo all about, concerning the way the whole event has been rigged by the powers that be.
Over in that disordered realm, CNN has already given Biden the evening's questions! Or who knows?
Maybe the president has actually written the questions, courtesy of CNN!
Somerby asks whether Biden will seem like a fully capable candidate. Isn't it more important to communicate that Biden is a fully capable PRESIDENT? Biden has demonstrated what he can and will do in a second term. (So has Trump, and the comparison is stark.) Here are Biden's achievements, since Somerby seems unwilling to acknowledge them:
ReplyDeleteFrom Simon Rosenberg:
"In the last few weeks we’ve gotten repeated confirmation of the success of the Biden Presidency - inflation was zero last month and prices of many goods are failing, crime and murder rates are way down, gas prices are down, the flow to the border is down. We’ve had the strongest economic recovery of any advanced economy in the world, the best job market since the 1960s, the lowest uninsured rate in American history, the deficit is trillions less, the Dow has broken 40,000 and all three indices continue hover in record territory. Domestic oil, gas and renewable production continue to be at all time highs leaving America more energy independent than it has been in decades. The Wall Street Journal called the American economy the “envy of the world,” and the Economist just wrote about the unprecedented start up boom America is experiencing right now. Biden’s big three investment bills have dramatically accelerated the energy transition necessary to combat climate change and will be creating opportunities and jobs for our workers for decades to come.
Joe Biden promised to make things better for all of us, to get us successfully to the other side of COVID. And he has."
The purpose of a debate is not to perform or show which candidate can be the most entertaining, funniest, or most outrageous. It is not for arm-waving. It is to inform the public about the plans, policies and concerns that each candidate holds and to tell voters what each candidate will do if elected. Biden did that last time, and he won. I fully expect that he will stick to the purpose of the debate this time, and I expect him to win again, perhaps by a wider margin than last time given Trump's decreased support and greater liabilities this time around. I expect Trump to swagger, attempt to bully the moderators, go off on incoherent tangents, and fail entirely to tell the people what he plans to do if elected. I expect Biden to continue to pull ahead in the polls, especially after Trump reveals himself to be unqualified during tonight's debate.
Somerby is working hard to lower expectations and denigrate Biden. His concern trolling has worn thin and he is coming across as an obvious foe of Biden, Democrats, and the left. No one attacks Hillary any more except Republicans.
Somerby's critique, as I understand it, is that Biden has not been a forceful communicator. I agree, and you probably do too in your heart of hearts. Biden's no JFK or even Barack Obama.
DeleteBut you think we should all pretend not to notice, for the good of the cause.
You are, rather obviously, deliberately misunderstanding it.
DeleteBiden does fine as a speaker and as a president.
DeleteI, personally, think he's a spectacularly great president. What he's done for the economy with the constraints he's had (inherited trashed economy; crazy Republicans running the House and Supreme Court; 60 votes needed in the Senate) has been astonishing.
DeleteAs a communicator - not so great (in my personal opinion).
So, is "not so great" or "not so forceful" the same as "awful"?
DeleteHe doesn’t tell enough shark stories or lead the crowd chanting bullshit. Somerbby seems kind of shallow.
DeleteWhat a train wreck that debate was. There's never been a worse candidate for president than Trump. He's a serial criminal and a pathological liar, a sociopath, a danger to the country. Someone with his baggage should be TROUNCED in a debate like that. And yet, he wasn't trounced, because Biden, while a decent human being and very good president, is suffering from too many effects of old age. Every time he talks, he garbles his words. He starts saying one thing and then jumps to something else. He almost never articulates a clear thought. A lot of the time, if you're not already familiar with what he's talking about, you'd never be able to figure out what he's trying to say. His voice is shot. He has zero charisma. He looks like a cadaver. And while all of that is superficial and shouldn't matter, it does unfortunately matter to some voters, and could be the deciding factor in a close election. It's ridiculous that in a country as big and diverse as this, we don't have a stronger candidate who could run circles around Trump in a debate like that. The whole situation is just infuriating and depressing.
DeleteFuck:
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSH6dYF57Wc
Garth - Yes.
DeleteTouche.
Delete3:59 "I expect him to win again, perhaps by a wider margin than last time"
DeleteYou were wrong about that one. His candidacy is over. You have gaslighted yourself.
Democrats have been immersed in a pernicious information bubble for years. This bubble has used gaslighting, performative irony, and sarcasm to dismiss criticisms with great success. But over time, they became addicted to these tactics, much like a drug, ultimately allowing them to be used on themselves.
Biden has always been extremely unpopular across the board. People dislike him. This has been obvious for years. But Democratic Party political junkies gaslight themselves into thinking otherwise. Biden's diminished capacity has been crystal clear and obvious for over a year. But these political junkies gaslight themselves into not seeing what is completely obvious and right there in front of their eyes.
It would be hard to find a better modern example of the lessons of self-delusion in "The Emperor's New Clothes" or overreach in "the Sorcerer's Apprentice".
Ultimately, the emperor was humbled by the child's honesty, and Mickey was humbled by the sorcerer's return and the realization of his mistake. Last night was the humbling moment for Democrats who became addicted to the power of bullying performative irony, gaslighting and sarcasm. Last night the extent of their hubris and overreach was laid bare. And we will all be paying a huge price for it.
'Somerby's critique, as I understand it, is that Biden has not been a forceful communicator."
DeleteHow is that a musing on the media?
"Biden has always been extremely unpopular across the board. People dislike him."
DeleteShhh. Nobody tell 4:11 that Joe Biden won the 2020 Presidential election in a landslide.
I want him to be surprised when he finds out.
Change the words "Biden" and "Democrats" to "Republicans" and the "Supreme Court" in 4:11's screed, and it ,makes even more sense.
Delete"Shhh. Nobody tell 4:11 that Joe Biden won the 2020 Presidential election in a landslide.
DeleteI want him to be surprised when he finds out."
Great example of the sarcasm 4:11 discussed. The addiction to sarcastic replies like this has sunk the 2024 election for Democrats. These replies work great on twitter and in comment sections but the real world asserts itself sooner or later.
"Over in that disordered realm, CNN has already given Biden the evening's questions! Or who knows?
ReplyDeleteMaybe the president has actually written the questions, courtesy of CNN!"
Somerby should point out that these are exactly the same tactics used twice before (2016 & 2020). Claiming that the questions were shared before the debate, but only to Hillary or Biden. Complaining that the Democrat will be on drugs and needs to be drug tested. Complaining that the moderators are biased. At least Trump won't be trying to give covid to Biden this time, the way he did in 2020.
DeleteWhen I work part-time, I make nearly $15,500 a month. A lot of people on the internet have told me how much money you can make from cards, so I’m still trying to figure it out. In fact, everything became real and completely changed my life. t31 Everyone should try it now, it only works .
Click here➜ Online work
If the networks were mean, they would show Trump's picture in a split screen, comparing his current appearance with 2016 and 2020. I expect Trump to ramble, get cut off, whine about it, glower at Biden and the moderators, say nothing intelligible, and become restless and move around a lot to try to distract Biden while Biden is spreaking. I expect him to tell lots of lies and use half-phrases that have shorthand meanings for his followers but make no sense to anyone else. He will use the term "Biden's migrant murder" a lot, trying to make political hay off the killings of young women and girls. Hey may be disoriented by the absence of an audience.
ReplyDeleteThe president has not been silent on major issues, just because Somerby has refused to listen to him. That is Somerby's strawman and it is wrong and also grossly unfair to the President.
ReplyDeleteKinky Friedman died. I enjoyed some of his books.
ReplyDeleteI never heard of him, but it looks like he died today. My condolences to all who miss Kinky.
DeleteHe was a Texas-based singer. He wrote a series of amusing mysteries. IIRC GW Bush was a fan. He once ran for Governor of Texas. He was an amusing, entertaining fellow, who will be missed.
DeleteDavid enjoys Kinky.
DeleteThat poor guy probably heard jokes like that his whole life.
DeleteAnonymouse 8:55pm, yeah, David’s a good sport.
DeleteKinky, not David.
DeleteConcrete.
DeleteFacts matter
DeleteOnce again, Peid, Bob lays it on the line. He cannot comprehend anyone who doesn’t think Biden is a shockingly bad President.
ReplyDeleteTrump’s fitness for office doesn’t seem
to be an issue. Does Bob really prefer Trump
on immigration? He must like child separations.
I won’t bring up how the Republicans took
Trumps orders and killed the immigration
bill. Bob doesn’t like it when you bring that
up! Inflation is the other big issue, this seems
to be stabilizing on many fronts and has been
for some time.
Bob’s unmentionables: jobs (amazing, this
alone would be justification for returning a Republican to office), the Market, infrastructure,
First black woman on the Court Trump reduced to gangsterism, statesmanship on Ukraine (Bob seems to have become a Putin fan, like Trump, he likes him better than our President) and yes, the hell of the Middle East.
Then you have the whole “not Trump” file, the utter corruption of the DOJ, etc., he didn’t lead a riot attacking the Capitol, etc.
Jesus, Joseph and Mary, Bob Somerby is one twisted idiot, and he CERTAINLY is not just dismissing Biden as a campaigner. In “The Seventh Seal” a brave, if broken knight saves a new generation from the clutches of death. So I wish he’d keep his mits off Bergman. We had our plague, Bob’s poor, disordered friend made it a lot worse than it had to be.
You think Somerby is "one twisted idiot," yet you continue to read him every single day because you're addicted to hating him. Pitiful.
ReplyDeleteMr Soros wants to know what Bob is up to, so he hired me to troll here.
DeleteI come here to read comments like 4:32. I mean, the comment is accurate.
DeleteThe boss assigned me to troll this blog because Bob is a twisted idiot.
DeleteAnonymouse 7:13pm, your boss hires shameless twisted idiots. He assigned you here because Bob is brilliant and compelling.
DeleteTrump proved that saying something doesn’t make it true.
DeleteThe boss had a second reason to send me here. He told me to befriend Cecelia.
DeleteAnonymouse 9:49pm, hey, DG.
DeleteI’m not DG, but I love you, Cecelia.
DeleteHa. The gang is getting desperate. Can’t answer my (admittedly easy to make) case that Bob is a twisted idiot, so you come after me. How I wish I could make a buck for a job as easy as taking down Bob. As to the rest, make up your mind, we Americans either have to keep talking to each other or we don’t. If you can’t defend Bob’s ridiculous attacks on Biden’s job performance, that your problem, don’t blame me.
DeleteI agree. Bob is a twisted idiot. I still love Cecelia. And David.
DeleteI don’t understand why BS wants POTUS to talk the “issues” of the day, maybe he should elaborate. Personally, I could care less but then I don’t need someone to pat me in the back “there, there.”
ReplyDeleteI am amused by what the NY Times considers to be "balance". An anti-Trump liberal matched against an anti-Trump conservative. The PBS Newshour has the same type of balance in their political debate each Friday.
ReplyDeletePro-Trump is beyond the pale.
Delete"...an anti-Hitler liberal against an anti-Hitler conservative..."
DeleteWhy are you amused? They are totally predictable
DeleteSoviet-style state-run media.
6:35,
DeleteIt's been 7 years, and the NY Times still hasn't had an economically anxious Republican voter write an Op/ Ed about Trump's HUGE tax break for corporations and the rich.
No one is calling that "balanced" reporting.
Watching the debate: unfortunately, Trump is more vigorous and more coherent than Biden.
ReplyDeleteBiden is too old, he's not up for the job, and people do not like him at all. It's been obvious for almost a year (to the non-robots) he is a horrible candidate.
DeleteAnd yet he is an excellent president. Results matter. Trump is just telling lies.
DeleteBiden apparently has a cold, making his voice hoarse. His team should have said something about it.
DeleteI think it’s fair to say that Somerby warned us that Biden may no longer be up for the job. All you anons who insisted that this was just right-wing propaganda should maybe do some Bayesian updating of your priors.
ReplyDeleteCan you read, Pied Piper?
DeleteSomerby said no such thing. Somerby criticizes the media for their reporting. He doesn't criticize politicians. If you don't like that. Write your own blog.
Or don’t update your priors. Up to you.
Delete
ReplyDeleteAnybody want a beautiful abstract painting? Bought for $200k, will sell for 20 bucks.
ReplyDelete"Over in that disordered realm, CNN has already given Biden the evening's questions! Or who knows? "
Of course they gave the questions to fellow Democrat functionaries; no question about that. The whole thing, the rules, the procedures, the moderators, everything was setup to help the anti-MAGA jihad. All of it.
And all this, it failed anyway. Ha-ha. Imagine that.
"Of course they gave the questions to fellow Democrat functionaries; no question about that."
DeleteThis is true. I read it on the internet. It's posted on a blog called "the daily howler". That should be enough proof for everyone. It better be. Because there is no other proof about it.
I'm still not voting for the rapist.
ReplyDeleteC'mon man, the Tara Reade incident happened 30 years ago. Statute of limitations.
Delete8:20,
DeleteIt's funny, because the Republican Party nominated a sexual predator to be their President three times in the last 9 years.
Who else could they nominate, Mr. Soros? Every Republican is a sexual predator, Sir. And a racist.
Delete8:41,
DeleteNah. It just seems that way, because of Trump and Clarence Thomas, etc.
Who are you, 8:45 AM, and what have you done to Massa Soros?
DeleteRepublican voters, who are economically anxious, and not at all just a shit pile of bigots (hat tip, mainstream media) are furious about Trump and the Republican Party's plans to slash Social Security and MediCare benefits.
ReplyDeleteThere's no way Trump can win in November with so many Republican voters up in arms.
Still think so after last night?
ReplyDeleteAre you suggesting that economically anxious Republican voters will embrace the Republican Party for slashing Social Security and MediCare benefits?
DeleteBecause, if there is anything we know, it's that Republican voters are economically anxious and not at all just a shit pile of bigots.
"Some big companies take advantage of consumers by making it near-impossible to cancel their subscriptions.
ReplyDeleteGuess who’s fixing that? You’ve got it — Joe Biden."
Details here: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2024/6/28/2208619/-Dark-Brandon-Is-Destroying-the-Barriers-to-Canceling-Your-Subscription-Boosting-Biden-Day-124?pm_campaign=front_page&pm_source=trending&pm_medium=web
Meanwhile, the right is urging Democrats to dump Biden because he had a cold but debated anyway and his voice was sometimes too hoarse to hear clearly. Glad everyone knows what matters.
It is always fun seeing Lauren Boebert chastised for her ignorance (because stupidity may be inborn but ignorance is voluntary):
ReplyDelete"Not one to avoid the GOP playbook, Boebert did her part to cast doubt on the upcoming intellectual exchange of ideas.
"Members of our military cannot just refuse a drug test because they don’t want to take one," she wrote on X. "Why is the Commander in Chief any different?"
And when Boebert spoke, the internet laughed.
"This is such a deeply stupid analogy," wrote conservative Army Iraq War Veteran Peter Henlein. "There is no good debate drug. If there was, I am sure both candidates would be taking it."
"When can we drug test you Lauren?" questioned @MailePRMedia.
"Members of the military can’t be convicted felons," retorted @jeffreymlevy. "Why is the republican nominee for President and Commander in Chief any different?"
"Hopefully your son is going to be required to take a drug test as part of his probation?" @DenisonBarbs fired back.
She reminds me a whole bunch of Cecelia.
"Everyone has the right to be stupid and ignorant, but you just abuse that privilege," said @ChidiNwatu."
""Members of the military can’t be convicted felons," retorted @jeffreymlevy."
Deletejeffreymlevy is lying. Or he is a Democrat, which is the same thing.
Too busy resonding to actually read the threat you are responding to (below)?
Delete"According to 10 U.S.C. 504, any person who is a convicted felon is prohibited from enlisting in any military service. However, you may still enlist for military service if you secure a felony waiver. The waiver request is not automatic, and approval depends on a case-by-case basis."
Levy is not "lying." You are not telling the whole truth either @10:22. Is your excuse that you are a Republican?
https://www.militaryverification.com/can-you-join-the-military-with-a-felony/#:~:text=According%20to%2010%20U.S.C.,case%2Dby%2Dcase%20basis.
They wouldn't let Trump join, with 34 felony convictions at an adult age (thus not a youthful mistake but a propensity for criminal behavior).
Yes, jeffreymlevy is lying.
DeleteTrump lied all the time and did not answer the questions.
ReplyDelete"The Debate Moderators Failed Us
ReplyDeleteJune 28, 2024 at 10:00 am EDT By Taegan Goddard [Political Wire]
Seth Masket: “Now, there’s a longstanding norm that presidential debate moderators aren’t supposed to do fact-checking in real time. This is something Candy Crowley got in trouble for back in 2012. And there’s some good reason for that — it’s not a very useful debate if a candidate is just arguing with a moderator about whether an event happened or not.”
“But the lack of fact-checking was probably more problematic tonight. Even a very skilled public speaker would have had a very hard time refuting all of Trump’s false statements and still getting in some points of his own. And Biden wasn’t that kind of speaker.”
I agree with 10:13. If the moderators weren't allowed to fact check, they could at least have required Trump to address the questions asked, instead of returning again and again to repeat his lies. They could have cut his mike when he was unresponsive and then repeat the question to him, moving on to another question if Trump refused to answer (after making it clear he was declining to answer).
""Members of the military can’t be convicted felons," retorted @jeffreymlevy."
Deletejeffreymlevy is lying. Or he is a Democrat, which is the same thing.
Sorry, wrong thread.
Delete"According to 10 U.S.C. 504, any person who is a convicted felon is prohibited from enlisting in any military service. However, you may still enlist for military service if you secure a felony waiver. The waiver request is not automatic, and approval depends on a case-by-case basis."
DeleteLevy is not "lying." You are not telling the whole truth either @10:22. Is your excuse that you are a Republican?
https://www.militaryverification.com/can-you-join-the-military-with-a-felony/#:~:text=According%20to%2010%20U.S.C.,case%2Dby%2Dcase%20basis.
They wouldn't let Trump join, with 34 felony convictions at an adult age (thus not a youthful mistake but a propensity for criminal behavior).
It seems to me that the people looking for easy answers are calling the debate for Trump and calling for Biden to step aside. Those who are thinking about what happened recognize that Biden won the substantive portion of the debate (based on content of his answers) but had a cold and his voice didn't sound good. They see that as a temporary problem that can be overcome with hard work. They are also pointing to focus groups and Republican viewer statements that they are having doubts about voting for Trump. Some viewers were put off by Trump's obvious lying and disrespect for veterans, based on focus group responses.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, we are in the same position we were before the debate. Biden's slack jaw was no worse than the fake clips being circulated and he is already being called old, over and over, by the media. Viewing this as a bad debate due to Trump's tactics may help calm the hysteria on the left. A younger person might have had just as much difficulty dealing with Trump, says Heather Cox Richardson:
"A Flood of Lies
June 28, 2024 at 9:36 am EDT By Taegan Goddard [Political Wire]
Heather Cox Richardson: “This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.”
“It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has. It is similar to what Trump did to Biden during a debate in 2020. In that case, though, the lack of muting on the mics left Biden simply saying: “Will you shut up, man?” a comment that resonated with the audience. Giving Biden the enforced space to answer by killing the mic of the person not speaking tonight actually made the technique more effective.”
ReplyDeleteWhen I work part-time, I make nearly $15,500 a month. A lot of people on the internet have told me how much money you can make from cards, so I’m still trying to figure it out. In fact, everything became real and completely changed my life. t31 Everyone should try it now, it only works .
Click here➜ Online work