TRIBES AND TRUE: What should the president say to the tourists?

FRIDAY, JANUARY 7, 2022

I respect you Trump voters too: We start today with two cheers for Marc Thiessen, a conservative columnist for the Washington Post.

We offer those two cheers for a very specific reason. Thiessen doesn't believe—indeed, he flatly rejects—the set of unfounded claims which are often called "The Big Lie." 

Thiessen flatly rejects "The Big Lie!" You can see him reject those claims right here, in his latest column:

THIESSEN (1/6/22): At the time of the [January 6] riot, a Post-ABC News poll found that 70 percent of Republicans believed Trump’s claims that Biden’s win was illegitimate. And a year later, multiple polls show that belief has not diminished. How can that be? Trump’s claims have been thoroughly examined and discredited. Nearly every court case Trump brought was rejected not just on procedural grounds, but on examination of the facts. Even his own attorney general, William P. Barr, said there was no “fraud on a scale that could have effected a different outcome in the election.” And yet millions of Americans still believe the election was stolen.

In Thiessen's view, Trump's claims have been "thoroughly discredited... And yet millions of Americans still believe the election was stolen," he accurately says.

Why do so many people believe that? As he continues, Thiessen blames it on the mainstream media. He says mainstream news orgs have earned the way they're distrusted by the bulk of the pro-Trump world.

We'd say there's an element of truth to that claim. On balance, we'd have to say that Thiessen is a bit too generous with the spoonfuls of blame to dollops to the mainstream media—but he does have a definite point.

Why do so many people believe the election was stolen? In the main, we would say that they believe it because that's what they've been told by the major figures they trust. 

That list starts with Donald J. Trump, and proceeds from there. This phenomenon takes us back to the trolley car full of tourists with whom Ted Koppel spoke.

Koppel spoke with the tourists in June of last year. He spoke with them in Mount Airy, North Carolina, spiritual home of the still-beloved Andy Griffith Show.

The (short) discussion was broadcast on CBS Sunday Morning a few months later, in September. The tourists said they believed the 2020 election was stolen, and they seemed to be wholly sincere. 

To our eye and to our ear, it seemed clear that they did believe that the election was stolen. In Thiessen's view, that's a thoroughly discredited claim.

Back in June, the tourists said that the election had been stolen. Koppel never challenged their claim or asked them to state the source of this view. 

At one point, though, a woman who seemed completely sincere did in fact describe the shape of a major national problem. This was the tourist's tale:

SECOND WOMAN: We don't even watch news on TV any more. We don't feel like we're being told the truth. And we find our truth in other ways. And I won't say what those other ways are, but I feel like we're not being told the truth, because we're trying to be swayed in a direction that we know is not the right direction.

According to this woman, the pro-Trump tourists don't watch news on TV at this point. They don't feel they're being told the truth by such news programs. They feel that they're "trying to be swayed"—that mainstream TV news programs are trying to sway their beliefs.

We'd have to say there's a germ of truth to that woman's perception. On the other hand, her sense that she can't trust TV news—presumably, mainstream TV news—likely means that she's "finding her truth" in the endless pronouncements of people like Donald J. Trump.

As Thiessen notes, Trump's pronouncements "have been thoroughly examined and discredited"—but as of last June, the woman with whom Koppel spoke showed no sign of knowing or thinking any such thing. 

As Thiessen further notes, recent surveys show that tens of millions of people remain in that same trolley car, or boat. This helps define the shape of a major national problem.

The politics of the past thirty years have provided us with a major learning experience. A major phenomenon has gone on display—the capacity of us the humans to believe almost any damn fool thing, no matter how unlikely or crazy it may be.

As it turns out, we humans are able to believe the darnedest things! To wit:

Some of us have been able to believe that Hillary Clinton was running a child-trafficking ring out of a pizza joint. A larger number were able to believe, in the face of massive evidence to the contrary, that Barack Obama was actually born in Kenya.

Long before that, many people believed Jerry Falwell when he (literally) peddled the idea that the Clintons had conducted a bunch of murders. And an endless line of major journalists all seemed to believe these claims:

Al Gore said he invented the Internet!
Al Gore said he inspired Love Story!
Al Gore said he discovered Love Canal!
Al Gore said he grew up on a farm, even though he really grew up in a fancy hotel!

There's nothing so dumb that we people won't say it in groups! It all depends on what tribe or guild we're in, and on what our tribe or guild is expounding at some point in time.

There's nothing so dumb that we won't believe it; nothing so stupid that a large group won't say it. For those of us in the anti-Trump tribe, we can see the foolishness of The Others, but we're almost surely unable to see the mountains of bullshit being sold to us rubes Over Here.

In our view, no one in the modern age has been more disordered than Donald J. Trump, but we in our tribe come remarkably close. Our tribal behavior has often been ugly, stupid and vile—and we're wholly unable to see this.

Brief as it was, we thought Ted Koppel's colloquy with those tourists was a fascinating TV event. 

We don't know why no one was wearing a mask on that small, crowded trolley car. We don't know how that particular group of tourists had been assembled. 

But it seemed obvious to us that those tourists widely held the views which Thiessen says have been debunked. Also, that those tourists were completely sincere in their (mistaken) beliefs,

Koppel never challenged their claims. At one point, a different woman said this:

KOPPEL: I won't be offended. I've been a journalist all my life. When President Trump talked about the press being "the enemy of the people"—

SECOND WOMAN: They are! And I love President Trump. And I love that man. I do.

THIRD WOMAN: I just hope when this airs, it won't show Southerners as a bunch of dumb idiots like so many parts of the country do, you know? We have a lot of love in our hearts. We love our country. We love our fellow man. 

Those tourists seemed to love Donald J. Trump—and they said they were good, decent people. Over Here in our self-impressed tribe, we tend to find it very hard to put such claims together.

Yesterday, President Bidne pushed back aggressively against the discredited claims of Trump. Many people are glad that he did. On balance, we share that view.

Full disclosure:

People routinely talk about Trump's "Big Lie," but we've never been completely sure that his claims are a "lie" at all. 

We regard Donald J. Trump as hugely disordered. It has never been clear to us that he doesn't believe the things he says—and our mainstream press corps, childish to the very end, has steadfastly refused to discuss the questions of Trump's possible mental and cognitive health. 

(They refused to do so even when his niece, a trained psychologist, wrote a major best-selling book which explicitly brought such questions to the fore. Simply put, our upper-end press corps persistently works at a remedial level. In almost every way, they're geared to dumbing things down.)

At any rate, Ted Koppel's trolley talk brought a major national problem into view. Our nation is split into two large tribes—and those tribes can't agree on what's true.

A large modern nation simply can't function this way. We think President Biden is right to challenge Trump's discredited factual claims. But what should he say to those people on that trolley?

I respect and admire you Trump voters too. I think you've been misled this time, and I very much want to tell you why I say that.

That said, you're my neighbors and you're my friends. You'll always be my fellow citizens, pretty much all the way down.

How about something like that? Given the dumbness of our tribe, why can't the people on that trolley walk away with some small respect too?


32 comments:

  1. tldr.

    However: "Thiessen flatly rejects "The Big Lie!""

    Are you talking about the so-called "Russiagate", dear Bob?

    Oh, sorry, never mind. Of course coming form a dembot, "The Big Lie!" can't be anything but God Honest Truth...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "The Big Lie" (i.e. there is a Republican voter who isn't a bigot).

      Delete
    2. What you say Mao makes a lot of sense, albeit from the Goebbelsian point of view

      Delete
    3. AC/MA, quick, get a thermometer and take your temperature.

      Delete
  2. This is important:

    https://digbysblog.net/2022/01/06/integrity/

    This is about Michael Fanone, a plainclothes narcotics officer who reported to the Capitol on 1/6:

    "Fanone didn’t have to be there—he voluntarily deployed, wearing his 10-year-old uniform for the first time. He received arguably the most severe non-lethal injuries of any officer that day. But it was what he did next that made him extraordinary.

    He’d voted for Trump in 2016 because he was tired of Democrats’ anti-police rhetoric. So when he saw commentators questioning the police response to the Capitol, he got pissed and decided to do something.

    He decided to speak up—in the Washington Post a series of network appearances, a conversation with @CNN‘s @donlemon.

    Fanone believed he was sticking up for his fellow cops. He went to Congress to confront the Republicans trying to whitewash the insurrection, particularly the 21 Reps who voted against medals for the officers who defended them.

    None would meet with him. One of them wouldn’t even shake his hand.

    Democratic politicians said the right things but didn’t necessarily rush to embrace him. The DC mayor’s office sent catering, with no note, and eventually honored the MPD responders at a regular municipal employee appreciation day, like high-performing sanitation workers.

    For months, the White House didn’t respond to a letter he sent, though @PressSec acknowledged it was received. A few days after I started asking why—the day Fanone appeared on the cover of @TIME—he and his fellow officers were finally honored at a Rose Garden ceremony.

    “We cannot allow the heroism of these officers to be forgotten,” @POTUS said that August day. “We have to understand what happened—the honest and unvarnished truth. We have to face it. That’s what great nations do, and we are a great nation.”

    ------------------------

    "But the hardest thing for Fanone was the response from his fellow cops—the ones he thought he was sticking up for. They called him names behind his back. They stopped returning his calls. Even the detective assigned to investigate his assault talked shit.

    After he testified before the Jan. 6 Committee, cop forums lit up with right-wing memes calling him a liberal plant.

    The Trump-supporting @GLFOP union, which often defends police against liberal politicians, has repeatedly refused to denounce the GOP pols who downplay Jan. 6—even as it defends some off-duty officers who participated in the insurrection...

    When Fanone was cleared to return to work in September, he was assigned to a desk job in a civilian department—for his own protection. When he went to the First District to clear out his old locker, his former brothers-in-arms taunted him: “Suck any liberal dicks lately?”

    Those people on the trolley should be confronted with Fanone. Because the dumbness of the Republican tribe won't change with coddling. Biden tried to ignore Trump for a year and it didn't work. Now is the time to confront Trump and his supporters and make it clear to them that their behavior cannot be tolerated any longer. We owe that to Michael Fanone and Liz Cheney and the people who have risked their lives to stand up for our country against Trump, his supporters, and their enablers -- those people on that trolley.

    And I am sick and tired of Somerby calling liberals dumb while sparing those trolley-riding dumbshits. What respect do they deserve? None, in my opinion.

    ReplyDelete
  3. "I respect and admire you Trump voters too."

    No -- I respect and admire Michael Fanone, Liz and Dick Cheney, even Mitt Romney -- but not you cowards on this trolley (aka the Trump bandwagon). You guys suck and need to clean up your act before you negotiate with Saint Peter, because you have a lot to answer for.

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  4. "And yet millions of Americans still believe the election was stolen," he accurately says.

    Why do so many people believe that? As he continues, Thiessen blames it on the mainstream media. He says mainstream news orgs have earned the way they're distrusted by the bulk of the pro-Trump world."

    I don't agree that people necessarily believe the Big Lie. they support it, but do they actually believe it?

    Back in 2016, I asked my Trump supporting friends how they could vote for someone who had said the things on the pussy tape, with so many assault claims against him. How they could support someone who stiffed his own contractors and bilked college students.

    These Trump supporters didn't attempt to deny any of my claims against Trump. They admitted them, but said they felt that Trump would make their lives better, attend to the things they thought should be done by government, lower taxes and help their businesses. They said they liked the way he "told it like it was" and thought he was funny and a way to stick it to previous politicians who they disliked.

    But they weren't deluded about what Trump himself was like. They voted for him anyway.

    That's why I don't agree that we should be polite or nice to such Trump voters. They knew what they were doing and did it anyway. They didn't care about the things I care about, but wanted what Trump was promising them (just as Trump's sycophants in public office do).

    I think Trump supporters need to be held accountable for their choices. They put this guy into office and destroyed a great deal by doing so -- Trump was manifestly incompetent then and remained so. That is on all of the Trump voters, including the ones who proclaim their innocence on that trolley. Perhaps them most of all, since they are not honest about their own motives. And if anyone is stupid, it is them. They pretend to be fooled by Trump, vitims of a con, when they knew -- they knew and we know too -- and now they have to weep in front to the judge while he passes sentence on them. And good riddance to them if they cling to Trump's promises in the days of covid. They will get theirs.

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  5. Somerby wants Biden to suck up to Trump voters the same way Ted Cruz sucked up to Fox News and Lindsay Graham sucks up to Trump himself.

    Republicans have no trouble on their knees -- they expect liberals to do the same. No thank you. If Biden did that, I wouldn't vote for him again in 2024 and neither would any other self-respecting liberal. We aren't like Republicans, in their suits with the bald spots on the knees, letting Marjorie Taylor Greene speak for them because they are too cowardly to admit to what they did.

    Something is also majorly wrong with Somerby. He not only thinks Rittenhouse should be excused but so should the rest of the Republican clan, no matter what they did. Because...? Why? Because Trump believes his own lies, or some such nonsense?

    Not going to happen.

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    Replies
    1. I thought you were going to say Ted "Nugent".

      Delete
    2. Rittenhouse was excused.

      Delete
  6. Agree with Bob and Thiessen, that the mainstream media is to blame for not calling out the Right as the fascists they are.

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  7. "Those tourists seemed to love Donald J. Trump—and they said they were good, decent people"

    And Somerby believed them about that. Because Somerby has swallowed a lot of the con himself. An actual liberal would choke on it, but not our Somerby.

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  8. Grow up, Bob.
    These people don't "believe" the big lie. They pretend they do. No one on the Right has made a good faith argument in at least 4 decades.

    ReplyDelete
  9. I respect and admire you Trump voters too. I think you've been misled this time, and I very much want to tell you why I say that.

    That said, you're my neighbors and you're my friends. You'll always be my fellow citizens, pretty much all the way down.


    This is such horseshit. President Biden says it all the fucking time. As did President Obama and as did President Clinton and candidate Hillary Clinton.

    President Trump told half the country to go fuck off. He deliberately targeted blue states including his monstrous response to Covid.

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  10. Somerby plays the "good decent people" card again today. He wants us to feel that if we do not forgive, we are not good people. That the best people approach others with infinite caring, respect and understanding for even the most wrong of Trump's followers, beknighted Southerners on a tourist bus to visit Andy Griffith's birthplace, even if it is not really Mayberry. Kind and good people cut Trump supporters some slack, because they are sincere in their love for Trump just as he is sincere in his love for Putin.

    And if we choose not to listen any more to Southern stupidity, and dismiss these Trump supporters as knowing accomplices instead of conned victims, we are then supposedly bad, harsh, mean-spirited, whatever the opposite of Ned Flanders goodness is?

    No, this is a matter of principles and values, not of niceness. Not every liberal lives in a space where gratitude and kindness are the highest goals (eg Boulder CO or Marin CA), but most of us live in the real world where wrongdoers need to be tried and stopped from further crimes, and the deluded need to be helped to discover reality again ("No collusion with a delusion"), and those who have bilked our country need to pay back their ill-gotten gains and stop looting the people's resources, and it is time to stop obstructing Biden and put our country back on course again. And you have hurt the feelings of a few Southern tourists to get that program started.

    It is clear what Somerby's priorities are -- whatever will help Trump and the conservatives guilt liberals into going along with their plans. But we are not dumb southerners and we know better than to listen to Somerby's scam, no matter how earnestly he invokes MLK, Lincoln and Gandhi, because he thinks that these are our heroes, not Mother Jones, Emma Goldman, John Lewis and Cesar Chavez. People who fought, even when others called them not very nice on some days.

    ReplyDelete
  11. "Al Gore said he invented the Internet!
    Al Gore said he inspired Love Story!
    Al Gore said he discovered Love Canal!
    Al Gore said he grew up on a farm, even though he really grew up in a fancy hotel!"

    Unlike the total fabrications (Hillary was a pedophile and killed people, the 2020 election was stolen) manufactured by the right wing, these statements about Al Gore had some basis in things Gore actually said.

    Here is what he said about Love Canal:

    "Gore said that in the late 1970s, when he was a young congressman from Tennessee, a girl wrote him a letter saying that her relatives became ill after drinking well water that “tasted funny.”

    “I called for a congressional investigation and a hearing,” Gore said.

    “I looked around the country for other sites like that. I found a little place in upstate New York called Love Canal. Had the first hearing on that issue.

    “That was the one that started it all,” he went on. “We made a huge difference, and it was all because one high-school student got involved.”

    He later backed off of that, saying: “If anybody got the misimpression that I claimed to do what citizens in Love Canal did, I apologize,”.

    Here is what he said about inventing the internet:

    "When asked to describe what distinguished him from his challenger for the Democratic presidential nomination, Senator Bill Bradley of New Jersey, Gore replied (in part): “During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country’s economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system.”

    This hinges on the word "created" versus "invented", exactly the kind of nitpick Somerby himself goes after. But there was a statement made by Gore about the internet, where as there was nothing whatsoever to link Hillary with a pizza parlor and satanic pedophilic rituals in its non-existent basement.

    This is an exercise of "which of these things is not like the others, which of these things just doesn't belong?" Gore doesn't belong on that list of fabricated accusations because the things said about him were trivial, minor, compared to the major fabrications that became the right wing's favorite tool against candidates.

    Hillary has worked her whole life to help children, so let's portray her as a pedophile.

    Bill Clinton is a warm (perhaps too-warm) people loving guy who loves to mingle with the people, so let's portray him as a cold-blooded politically motivated murderer, and throw in rapist for good measure.

    John Kerry is a decorated war hero who demonstrated courage in battle in Vietnam, so let's portray him as a coward who fabricated his own war record, threw away his medals and left his patrol to die.

    Those are real lies. If Somerby is saying that the right wing learned to lie during those years, he may be right, but the lies told about Al Gore and just not in the same league as the ones told about others. They are more akin to "let's tease the nerdy kid because he will overreact and that's a hoot." A bored press corps might do that, but on the other hand, it did reveal something about Gore's character. But these are hardly "big lies" in the same sense as Trump's many "big lies" about important things, such as covid.

    It doesn't justify Somerby's lifelong vendetta against the mainstream media. The same media that Somerby blames has been instrumental in unmasking all of these bigger lies and we need them to keep doing their job.

    ReplyDelete
  12. "According to this woman, the pro-Trump tourists don't watch news on TV at this point. They don't feel they're being told the truth by such news programs. They feel that they're "trying to be swayed"—that mainstream TV news programs are trying to sway their beliefs."

    How much of this perception arises because this woman is viewing mainstream news while having been indoctrinated by Trump & Fox, so that there is a real tension and conflict between what she hears from Fox versus mainstream news?

    She interprets it as mainstream news trying to sway her beliefs, not Fox News having already swayed her beliefs and mainstream media presenting different viewpoints that cause her cognitive dissonance that feels uncomfortable to her.

    That doesn't mean mainstream news is trying to sway anybody. It means she recognizes that the two sources are not saying the same things and interprets the newer one as being a challenge to her existing beliefs acquired from Fox. Instead of thinking about the differences, she rejects mainstream news.

    But Somerby! What is his excuse for interpreting the mainstream news as a culprit instead of a purveyor of factual news? Why does Somerby agree that the mainstream media is trying to sway, not inform, this woman? And why does he not feel like Fox is trying to sway him with its own programming?

    This seems like a good indicator that Somerby finds himself more in agreement with what he hears on Fox than on the mainstream media. And that suggests that Soemrby is no liberal because liberals don't tend to feel that way. Many liberals have a strong negative reaction to the programming on Fox, not a feeling that here is truth whereas lies and swaying come from the mainstream.

    Some countries deal with this issue of news swaying by controlling the media in their nation. The USA doesn't do that -- it allows freedom of the press. Instead, a well-functioning democracy depends on education to give people the tools to evaluate sources of information. The problem in this scenario is that these people may not be sufficiently well educated to defend themselves against Fox News. The right has tried to dumb down the populace for generations now, with a concerted assault on education, especially higher education. Somerby participates by ridiculing the concept of expertise and claiming that professors and other experts on TV are goons and idiots. But if these people on the trolley were better educated, they might find themselves able to deal with the dissonance caused by competing facts, and thereby sort their way out of being swayed by anyone, including Fox and Trump.

    These trolley people are victims, but not in the way Somerby proposes. They are victims because they have been denied appropriate access to effective education, so that they can think for themselves, whether offered nonsense by the mainstream media or Fox or Trump...or even Somerby.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. But Republicans will probably object if Biden mandates that Trump supporters watch at least 2 hours of non-Fox cable news per night. Short of that, I don't know what can be done with these people.

      Delete
  13. Biden may respect all citizens of the US, because he is their president, but that doesn't mean he must respect their opinions, much less admire them. People look to Biden as a source of leadership and strength, not as a reflection of their own views.

    ReplyDelete
  14. There is no umpire to throw a flag or gameshow host to ring a buzzer to reward us for being right and punish them for being wrong. This is real life. Let's figure out how to survive.





    ReplyDelete
  15. Here is a link to a focus group of Republicans talking about 1/6 and who won the election. It is consistent with those trolley tourists. However, at least no one is recommending that we all kiss the asses of these idiots.

    https://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2022/01/the-new-york-times-buries-lede-which-is.html

    When large numbers of people believe wrong things, the answer is not to agree with them. Sooner or later, they will figure out what happened, as long as Biden keeps on doing his job in public. The world shouldn't rearrange itself because a bunch of entitled white Republicans have different opinions (spoonfed to them by politicians with no scruples).

    I don't see why anyone is seriously suggesting that we need to cater to these guys because, in their ignorance, they have picked up wrong ideas. It is their problem.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Good thing they can't vote, and anyone they elect can't pass laws or appoint judges, and anyone they appoint can't do anything to harm us in any way.

      Delete
    2. Actually, it is a good thing they are a minority in our country, if not in the rural and red areas where they live. They are welcome to their delusions as long as they don't impose them on me and my family.

      No one is suggesting that we stop campaigning and GOTV efforts to defeat them at the polls, but there is nothing that will be helped by taking their ideas seriously. They won't change and by validating their opinions, other uninfected people may be tempted to following their path.

      Letting them continue to believe Q-Anon and anti-vaxx beliefs is slowly killing them off. And notice that they do not generally change their minds, even on their death beds. So how will Somerby's "civility" change anyone's minds?

      Delete
    3. They are already imposing them and it will only get worse as we variously burn or drown (perhaps less and less slowly). Taking them seriously would show good instinct for survival.

      Delete
    4. What is the point of taking them seriously when there is nothing that can be done about them (except what we are already doing)?

      Delete
    5. Could be hopeless. But being civil doesn't cost me anything. If they speak and I listen, maybe some will hear themselves. Maybe not.

      Delete
    6. Being civil to people who are themselves uncivil does cost you something. They are not speaking in order to seek your understanding. They are often in-your-face with attitude because they like to "own the libs" and express their membership in the Trump club (cult), because it reinforces their identity and makes them feel better about themselves, at your expense.

      My experience of Trump supporters is that they deliberately roll coal because they don't like my EV. They plaster Trump stickers on other people's houses if they have Democratic lawn signs. They deliberately disobey mask requirements at the grocery store, by letting their masks hang belong their noses, as an act of defiance (not stupidity), and don't care if they spread covid to anyone around them. If you are sitting at a bar, they sit next to you and make loud bigoted statements about people you care about, often drunken but not necessarily. A Trump supporter has never asked me a sincere question about my political beliefs and there is no reason to expect that they will "hear themselves" when they don't hear anything but their own echo chamber.

      You can "be civil" and roll over for boors, or you can make the effort to stand up for yourself and at least maintain your self respect. Your choice. But I do not choose to make nice with people who are uncivil to me or others around them. I avoid them if I can (but we can't during elections) and I stick up for myself and my beliefs.

      No Trump supporter is going to interact with you without you showing strength because they don't respect weakness and civility is weakness to them.

      Delete
    7. The people on the trolley, like many I have met, seem nice enough. I agree that some are too obnoxious to converse with (pickup trucks seem to be an indicator, but not always). I don't know you, but your comments make it sound as if being humiliated by hearing someone out is a big risk. I hope I will be able to "stand up for myself" if someone else's view of any matter somehow threatens my own integrity or peace of mind.

      Delete
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