THURSDAY, JANUARY 16, 2025
How we Blues (may have) lost one vote: As part of its ongoing series of focus group sessions, the New York Times has spoken with twelve men who voted for Candidate Trump. The report appears beneath this headline:
‘Where’s Our Place in Society?’: 12 Men Who Backed Trump Grapple With America
The twelve men all voted for Trump. Four of the twelve say they're Democrats. One says he's an Independent.
How did the Democratic Party lose those four or five votes? There's no surefire way to know, but we were interested by this exchange with Rich, age 54, a Latino Democrat from the state of New York who works in construction:
RICH: Years ago, I would listen to a different left-leaning podcast. And then I felt lied to.
MODERATOR: Is there something they lied about, do you think, Rich?
RICH: Russia. And I felt like they lied to me about the lacrosse kids with Duke. They just were so emphatic that they were guilty. I just checked out. They lost me.
Years ago, I was a big Ed Koch fan, and I remember going to see him. And he said to me and my group: If you agree with me 80 percent, vote for me. If you agree with me 100 percent, go see a therapist. And I kind of live my life that way when I listen to news.
So the colloquy went. This voter says he felt lied to about the Duke lacrosse case, but he also cited Russia.
Earlier, he had said this:
RICH: I like Tucker Carlson. And I like Joe Rogan. I just feel they’re genuine, authentic, and they come across like they’re saying what they really feel and not putting their finger in the air and deciding where the political winds are going. I like who they interview.
MODERATOR: Is there an interview you liked that comes to mind?
RICH: Recently Tucker interviewed the Russian right-hand man of Putin, and I found it interesting. I’m open to his point of view.
Based on his full set of statements, we'll guess that Rich may be a Democrat who's on his way to being a Republican. That's his perfect right, of course—and then again, maybe not!
It's also true that a political party—or a political movement—isn't trying to win every voter. This is a very important point.
At any given point in time, many voters will be out of reach. You're trying to win the most persuadable voters. In this case, that may not be Rich.
That said:
We were surprised to see him cite the Duke lacrosse case. You rarely see that incident mentioned these days. As the leading authority on the matter reports, it takes us all the way back to 2006.
Many segments of Blue America aggressively prejudged that incident in line with preferred Storyline. Many parts of Blue America behaved in ways which were quite unwise—and after the prejudgments about that case blew up, many of us did the same darn thing eight years later with respect to the UVa fraternity case.
Over here in Blue America, we've sometimes worked to earn our way out. In some cases, a person sees us doing these things and a Trump voter gets his wings.
We voted for Candidate Harris ourselves. For whatever reason or reasons, Rich didn't.
Final question: What exactly does Rich think about Putin's right-hand man—about his "point of view?" We wish the New York Times had asked. What would this voter have said?
Somerby has claimed that Biden and Harris did not clearly explain their policies and accomplishments on immigration and the economy. Digby today describes a Pew poll asking prospective voters whether they felt Harris/Trump had clearly explained their policies on a variety of topics. Here are the relevant "yes" results for Harris voters:
ReplyDeleteImmigration: 61%
Strengthening the economy: 76%
Of course, Trump supporters felt he had been very clear on both, rating him 94% on immigration and 89% on the economy. That doesn't mean Trump was clear, only that they felt they understood his bombastic statements on those topics.
These results do not support the idea that Harris either evaded or was unclear in describing her own policies, according to voters.
The same poll gives the figures for Trump voters rating Harris's clarity on issues:
Immigration: 12%
Strengthening the economy: 8%
So, when Somerby makes the complaint that Harris was unclear in explaining these particular issues, he is echoing the position held by Trump supporters, not what Harris supporters feel about Harris.
In general, the Trump supporters felt that Trump had clearly explained all of his positions, including the ones he has been evasive or garbled about. Digby says:
"That is nuts. He [Trump] was clear as mud about everything but immigration and tariffs. The rest was just the usual bluster and bullshit."
https://digbysblog.net/2025/01/15/wdtvrw/
My question is why Somerby repeats a conservative talking point about Harris's supposed lack of clarity here, while claiming to be a Harris supporter.
A guy who is open to the point of view of the Kremlin is well on his way to becoming a modern day Republican.
ReplyDelete"We were surprised to see him cite the Duke lacrosse case. You rarely see that incident mentioned these days. As the leading authority on the matter reports, it takes us all the way back to 2006.
ReplyDeleteMany segments of Blue America aggressively prejudged that incident in line with preferred Storyline. Many parts of Blue America behaved in ways which were quite unwise—and after the prejudgments about that case blew up, many of us did the same darn thing eight years later with respect to the UVa fraternity case."
Maybe because that was the first high profile example of the mainstreet media's decision to become propogandists for the liberal, i.e., Democrat line instead of being objective reporters who were supposedly interested in finding the "truth" to such events.
The liberal line is that when women make claims of sexual abuse, those claims should be investigated and taken seriously. That occurred and the truth came out.
DeleteSomerby misrepresents the liberal line as women must always be believed, no matter how unlikely their claims. If that were true, all of the accusers of Bill Clinton would have been believed, not just Monica. The right does believe them still, because they originated those smears against him, made by liars who were proven unreliable. The same is true of the woman who accused Biden. The right continues to believe her story, even though she has been discredited after investigation. If the left automatically believed all women, all the time, it too would believe Biden's accuser, but the left does not believe that.
Somerby's caricature of left-wing views is mistaken. Rich is a lost soul and I feel sorry for him, but he chose his own path and will now have to take responsibility for electing Trump. Somerby meanwhile is making a fool of himself again by misrepresenting what liberals believe.
Ask Somerby is he still believes Roy Moore is innocent of the accusations made against him.
Anonymouse 4:40pm, yes, we realize that it’s completely illogical and unfair to say that all women should automatically be believed when they accuse a man of assault.
DeleteWe all understand that this type of immediate assumption is only justified if the accused is not a Democrat.
Some of the Lacrosse team were dems & some Republicans. Why politicize it?
DeleteAnonymouse 6:22pm, why politicize it? Read up. The whole case became a political-polemical rallying point for feminists as to privileged white male violence . It was the stuff of a thousand cable tv panels. The DA who brought charges against these guys ended up being disbarred . It was political thru and thru.
DeleteYou are exaggerating.
DeleteI do not believe that occasionally getting a story wrong causes people to switch political parties and vote for candidates widely different than in their past. I DO believe that watching Fox and Rogan can radicalize a man who immerses himself in that subculture. Many of the people who follow Q-Anon, white supremacist and militia groups report being radicalized on the internet. The same is true for those following Men's rights and incel groups online. That media is where people acquire their fringe views, get red-pilled and become true believers.
ReplyDeleteSomerby wishes to use a handful of false accusations by women as a justification for switching to Fox and voting for Trump. There are just as many situations in which women are not believed and men are appointed to the Supreme Court (Clarence Thomas, Brett Kavanaugh) despite them. Does that mean that some number of voters will have switched from Fox back to MSNBC because of it? Unlikely. The justification of a vote by someone who claimed to be a Democrat a long time ago (like David in Cal does here) proves nothing whatsoever about why certain men decided to support Trump.
There are actual studies showing that the times when women make false claims are far outweighed statistically by the times when women make true claims that go ignored or are not investigated. Somerby appears to have decided that women always lie, since he refused to believe Stormy Daniels, Christine Blasey Ford, Chanel Miller, and the various accusers of Roy Moore. And don't forget Anita Hill.
If men are going to switch their political identities every time a story is incorrect on a news station, they will get whiplash, but Fox easily reports more false stories than MSNBC (or wherever Rich switched from). He remains a Fox viewer because Fox appeals to his prejudices and emotional needs, not because they tell more truth. Look at the very mistaken story about the murderer who drove the truck into people in New Orleans. Fox said he was an illegal immigrant when he was a veteran and Texas citizen with right wing views. Will Rich now become a Democrat again? Don't hold your breath.
"Based on his full set of statements, we'll guess that Rich may be a Democrat who's on his way to being a Republican. That's his perfect right, of course—and then again, maybe not!"
ReplyDeleteA man who watches Fox and likes Tucker and Rogan is not a Democrat, no matter what he tells an interviewer in order to earn whatever they paid him to be on that panel. He may be confused about how to change his voter registration, but that Duke incident was in 2006!
Other Democrats who aren't Democrats: David in Cal, Somerby, Bill Maher
The UVa case was investigated and found to be fabricated. That's what investigations are for. The problem was that Rolling Stone was duped by its own reporter, not that liberals on a bandwagon went crazy with wokeness.
ReplyDeletePeople do place their trust in the truthful reporting of news sources. They don't always get it right. The expectation is that there will be a retraction and/or correction of mistakes, not that news is always perfectly reported.
Look at the lies Fox is currently telling about the fires in LA. Look what they said about FEMA after the hurricanes. Why would someone like Rich, who cares so much about truth, stick with Fox in the face of such lies? Does Somerby have an answer for that?
Rich is that rare Latin who is not an asset to our country. Send him back to Latium.
ReplyDeleteGiven that the interview was in NYC, Rich is most likely Puerto Rican Hispanic, so there is no other country to send him back to. Puerto Rico is part of the US.
DeleteOn the contrary, Rich is a smart fellow who took to heart some very good advice from a renowned Democratic politician.
DeleteIf he were actually taking that advice to heart, he wouldn't have switched to Trump.
DeleteAnonymouse 5:13pm, nope. Rich seems to have discovered that he agrees with Republicans closely enough to vote for Trump, but not so completely that he could be the equivalent of a brain dead anonymouse operative troll.
DeleteRich did what Koch suggested he should do.
Here is what Koch suggested (according to Rich):
Delete"And he said to me and my group: If you agree with me 80 percent, vote for me. If you agree with me 100 percent, go see a therapist."
The point is that you don't need 100% agreement (and it isn't possible to have that) to vote for someone. But a Democrat would presumably have a greater % of agreement with another Democrat, not with Trump. So if Rich had allowed 80% agreement with Biden, he would have voted for Biden, not Trump. That he went with Trump suggests he wasn't a Democrat (or he would have had that 80%) but had become a Republican. He has the 80% with Trump not Biden. That makes him not a Democrat. How did his beliefs change? From watching Fox and Rogan.
Anonymouse 5:54pm, Rich describes a process that he went thru in coming to a conclusion about his beliefs. He listened to different perspectives, thought about them, and made a decision to change the way he votes.
DeleteYou’d like to suggest that Rich merely discovered that he is a Mr. Hyde because Rich was born a Mr. Hyde in the first place. You think like this because that’s the sort of militant partisan zealot that you are.
I agree with Cecelia 100%.
DeleteNo, he immersed himself in Fox and Rogan.
DeleteAnonymouse 7:21pm, and when he wasn’t watching Fox, anonymices were yelling that he should be critiquing Fox. You’re complete phonies. You’re engaged in an operation against Somerby for reasons you don’t even remember anymore. You’re literal harpies.
Delete"We voted for Candidate Harris ourselves."
ReplyDeleteThis seems unlikely to me. Somerby hasn't had a good word to say about Harris during her entire campaign, other than that she has a nice smile. He criticized her regularly and is still doing so. He hasn't said anything about voting for the lesser of evils but just used every excuse he could find to knock her, as he is still doing as recently as two days ago. Why would he vote for someone he couldn't bring himself to actively support by saying positive things?
Beyond that, Somerby has said here that he watches Fox 24/7. He has said that MSNBC is "unwatchable." He never misses a chance to denigrate Democrats or Blue America or "us blues" or however he wants to refer to the left. He pretends he is concerned about our success but there is no balance to any of his negativity about Dems. His ongoing diatribes bear no resemblance to anything an actual liberal would write.
It is conceivable that Somerby would lie about voting for Harris. Why? Because statements made by a member of one's own political group carry more weight than those made by opponents. It enhances his ability to persuade readers if they believe he is one of "us" (as he refers to himself), giving him more credibility when he expresses right wing talking points and misinformation.
The ballot is secret. There is no reason to believe that Somerby is not lying about how he voted. He of course has the right to vote however he wants, but lying on a blog to convince others to belief right wing propaganda is not a moral act. Given the destructive acts Trump may perform, Somerby may be responsible for harming our country, just as everyone who helped put Trump back in office has done.
If the news is not reliable as a source of truthful info, how can we assume Somerby would be?
DeleteAnonymouse 4:58pm, you shouldn’t just assume it. You’re not asked to merely do that either. Bob generally presents links as to the objective facts of an issue and then expresses his subjective feelings about the subject.
DeleteHe hasn’t linked to his own voting record.
DeleteAnonymouse 7:20pm, how do you link to your voting record?
DeleteAnonymices are here to call Bob a liar and a fraud and you’re not smart enough to be the slightest bit subtle or rational about it. You don’t get paid for being believable, just for being consistent. . Every day you paint your face blue and run out with your sword… just a hollerin’.We ought to nickname you Bravefart.
Fuck off.
DeleteAnonymouse 7:41pm, you’d pronounce that “fook”.
Delete"Many segments of Blue America aggressively prejudged that incident in line with preferred Storyline."
ReplyDeleteThis is idiotic. What is the preferred storyline in a case of rape? Who is usually believed in such cases? Hegseth? Kavanaugh? Somerby's own biases are showing here.
Somerby has taken to referring to "Blue America" as if it were some official entity whose membership can be defined. The American left is not monolithic and there are many disagreements and differences of opinion on the left. There is not one viewpoint that can be characterized as supporting any preferred storyline. This is Somerby's latest smear campaign. There is no Dear Leader on the left who tells everyone what to believe and what to say, as exists in MAGAland. If there were such an entity as Blue America, Somerby wouldn't be part of it. He only furthers right wing talking points here. He never supported the woman accusing the Lacross team or Chanel Miller or Christine Blasey Ford or any woman, especially not any "feminist hero" (as he accused Stormy of being). How then does he get to call himself one of us, based on his own criteria?
ReplyDelete“ The American left is not monolithic and there are many disagreements and differences of opinion on the left. There is not one viewpoint that can be characterized as supporting any preferred storyline.”
DeleteOh, really? We’d never glean that claim from your behavior. Anonymices are as zealously dogmatic and one-sided as an Inquisition torturer. Who do you think you’re kidding?
I’m one person. Others have their own views.
Delete