Where does our team go from here?

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 5, 2020

Also, what's wrong with the polling?: Kevin Drum has raised two questions in two recent posts. 

In this post, he has asked what the heck's wrong with the polling. Consider:

During election years, the laborious reading of polls is the major way "cable news" kills time every day. For that reason, the fact that these polls seem to be increasingly lousy has become a significant question.

In this second post, Drum has asked where we liberals go from here. We think his basic outline is extremely well taken:

DRUM (11/4/20): ...Biden’s [likely] victory represents only a tiny change in the vote compared to 2016. Trumpism wasn’t rejected—he probably would have won if not for the pandemic—and liberalism wasn’t embraced. At this point, Republicans still need to come to grips with how Trump took over their party, but Democrats need to come to grips with the fact that they remain a generally unloved alternative. I have my own ideas about why that is, which I’ll keep to myself for the time being, but it’s something that needs to be addressed in a clear-eyed way. No more hiding behind popular vote victories or polls claiming to show that everyone loves our policies. It’s obvious that both are misleading. Nor is the answer for the party to be more vigorous about supporting your personal policy preferences. That’s just lazy.

This is all going to be discussed to death over the next few months, and we’re all going to get sick of it. But the worst thing liberals can do is to keep piddling down the same path as always without giving it much thought. We need to do better.

In fact, it wouldn't be bad if we did much better. Here are a few basic points:

According to the official exit polls, 24 percent of voters surveyed said they consider themselves liberal. 37 percent of voters said they consider themselves conservative.

It can get more surprising than that! According to the exit polls, 47 percent of voters said they "approve of the way Donald Trump is handling his job as president." 

We aren't saying that view is right; we aren't saying that view is wrong. We're saying that a very large chunk of the electorate sees the world in a way which flies in the face of the liberal perspective. And by the way:

The people who see things that way won't be going anywhere. They sit with us on this country's board of directors. That fact isn't going to change.

A second point from the exit poll data is already being discussed. According to the exit data, 18 percent of black men voted for Trump, as did 36 percent of Hispanic men. As we note those facts, we state the obvious:

People have every right to vote for whoever they want.

Concerning these exit poll data, a basic point should be made. Exit polls are like other polls. You can't assume that these exit poll data are accurate!

It's hard to know what others think, especially if you're talking about tens of millions of other people. It's hard to learn why people believe the various things they do.

As we wait for the discussion described by Drum to begin, we leave you with some basic questions:

Do you have basic respect for people who don't see or understand the world the same way you do? Or are you, like the bulk of humanity down through the ages, committed to the obvious greatness of yourself and our glorious tribe?

We're looking forward to hearing Drum's views. We'll be stating views of our own on the topic at hand.


51 comments:

  1. "Do you have basic respect for people who don't see or understand the world the same way you do?"

    You mean these folks?

    https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/nevada-election-official-i-am-concerned-for-the-safety-of-my-staff-95389253864

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  2. "It can get more surprising than that! According to the exit polls, 47 percent of voters said they "approve of the way Donald Trump is handling his job as president." "

    We humyns appreciate peace and prosperity, dear Bob. And the Commander's delivered just that. Also, we are all sick and tired of your liberal-hitlerian cult, dear Bob.

    That's why we're reasonably optimistic that after all necessary litigations that will, hopefully, roll back your cult's endless machinations, the Commander will be declared the winner. It'll take a while, but let's hope, dear Bob.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Я бы вас послал, да вижу вы оттуда!

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    2. Mao, "peace and prosperity" look suspiciously like the spineless foreign policy and wild deficit spending that was so heavily criticized in the previous administration. Except with more bullying.

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    4. Sorry, Mao time up. Go back to your kennel now

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  3. I have to ask, what is the matter with men in this country? Trump pulled black and Latino (mostly Cuban) men away from the Democrats, but not women. That 48% that approves of Trump's job in office is largely male. Women are less likely to support him.

    The other great dividing line is education. The more education someone has, the less they tend to support Trump.

    Instead of blaming liberals (a word that has been made dirty by conservatives and disavowed by progressives), why not blame the stupidity and macho ignorance of 48% of our populace and work at rebuilding our schools and universities. That is where the work needs to be done.

    I doubt Kevin Drum would describe himself as liberal. Somerby is not liberal either. And yet their views supposedly define the problem with this election. How does that make any sense?

    I have no (nada, nil, nunca) respect for someone who values property over people. That seems to be a shared trait of Trump and it defines his followers. I have no respect for those who think rules and customs are for other people, as Trump and his followers do. Trump has no respect for law and that should disqualify him from office, but somehow 48% voted for him despite that, while thinking of themselves as the law-and-order party. Their idea of law is clearly different than mine (or those who wrote the constitution.

    Do we need to respect people who deserve no respect? I don't agree with Somerby's proposition that we should be according respect to deplorables. Maybe the problem is that they have been respected too much. And liberals have been respected too little, especially by folks like Somerby.

    Respect starts with self-respect. I am proud to be liberal and I do not need to kow-tow to racists, sexists, and white supremacists in order to [what?]. They cannot be convinced and they are clearly wrong, and there is nothing to do about them except try to keep them away from any power or influence over others. Whatever has infected them is worse than covid, because conspiracy theories don't kill those they infect, they just inspire them to kill others, usually innocent bystanders, often children.

    Our country is in deep trouble, but liberals are not the problem.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Do we need to respect people who deserve no respect?.
      This is a very bad framework from which to operate politically. Dismissing millions of people as not worthy of any respect without knowing anything about them is not a winning strategy. As much as we like to think that every Trump supporter is an unmitigated racist, it just isn't the case. Even if it were the case, it doesn't mean that you can't educate them on where their self-interest lies. How do Democrats get there? I don't know...they need to find a better crop of political scientists to show them the way.

      Delete
    2. Meh.
      We need to help them* (they are citizens of the country), but respect is earned.

      *and liberals will continue to do so through the ACA, increasing the minimum wage to $25/ hour, etc

      Delete
    3. Ilya, I have never heard an explanation for supporting Trump that justifies supporting that man.

      I think Democrats are raised from childhood, not converted as adults. But also, it is a matter of personality and values. Read Jonathan Haidt, who is a political psychologist (and a conservative).

      To appeal to them, we would have to become them, and I don't want to do that. If America is inevitably a country of crass materialists, I don't want to live here.

      Delete
    4. Ilya, you just do not understand electoral politics. Persuasion has no role, motivation is the game.

      Delete
  4. Somerby is not a member of "our team". He is a reject.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. He knows this, and it pisses him off.

      Delete
  5. "According to the exit polls, 47 percent of voters said they "approve of the way Donald Trump is handling his job as president." "

    Exit polls only poll the people who voted on Election Day. 100 million voters voted before Election Day. We already knew those voting on Election Day would skew Republican.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This explains the data only 24 % reported as liberal but Biden will win the popular vote by over 5million.

      Delete
    2. Oof! Somerby is a moron.

      Delete
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  7. "According to the exit polls, 47 percent of voters said they "approve of the way Donald Trump is handling his job as president."

    Are these pollsters as bad as our (phony) liberal media? Where are the follow-up questions?
    Was it the desire of these Trump voters to give HUGE tax breaks to corporations that were sitting on piles of cash or was it their hope that they too can get mercury poison from drinking water that was more important to them than Trump trying to gaslight a pandemic?

    ReplyDelete
  8. Do Liberals really want to live in a world where people won't love Trump for his failure to gaslight a pandemic?

    That might be a good question for the NY times to ask Biden voters, as they spend the next four years reporting on/ discovering what makes Biden voters tick.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. https://www.alternet.org/2020/11/even-if-biden-wins-millions-of-americans-voted-to-reelect-a-dangerous-sociopath-conservative/

      We liberals don't need to do more navel gazing. The problem is with the other party. And they have barely started to wonder what is wrong with conservative voters.

      This link describes an article in The Atlantic written by a conservative, who asks the questions about Trump voters that Somerby thinks belong to us.

      Delete
  9. Dear Bob
    Time to ask you Southies why they want to practice eliminationest policies on the opposition.
    Liberals may talk down to conservatives, but they DO NOT treat them as a group to be removed as Conservatives are taught by Talk radio and Fox TV.
    And BTW I thought we progressives are the snowflakes.
    According to you it is conservatives who are the wimps who just crumple up from the verbal "abuse" of Left wingers.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Steve Bannon just suggested publicly that Fauci should be beheaded. Similarly, before the election Trump junior circulating memes that Biden is a pedophile.Let’s hear a full throated Republican condemnation of these douchebags. Since it hasn’t happened to date don’t ask
    me or any other liberal to play nursemaid to republican’s hurt feelings or try to understand them any more than I would care to dissect the psychological intricacies of Ted Bundy’s girlfriend. Many of their own party’s thought leaders have abandoned them. They are sick, amoral, like the turd they worship. And by the way since the knee jerk response is to blame the pundits for inaccurate pre election polls especially in the blue wall states, maybe we should take Trump’s election fraud accusations seriously. There is no reason a priori to reject the hypothesis that fraudulent right wing activities brought the numbers closer than they should have been. I have lost count of how many times the Trump brand has accused the opposition of their own immoral activities.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No one is asking you anything.

      Keep being you.


      “ No matter the outcome, the media owes it to the public to learn more about Trump voters

      As of this moment on Thursday night, we still don't know for sure who will win the 2020 election - and that's alarming to begin with. And there looks like recounts are likely in Georgia, Pennsylvania and potentially other key states. So, we don't know the answer to that all-important questions.

      But we know some things. Like that after four years of being told by the media, by prominent voices on Twitter and by the left that Donald Trump is a racist, sexist, xenophobic, homophobic monster, how did the electorate respond?

      Let's compare the 2016 exit polls with the 2020 exit polls - and then let's look after at the media's response to these findings. According to the exit polls this year, Donald Trump improved his margins among gender and racial categories with every single group except one - he lost ground among white men.

      He improved significantly with Black women, doubling his support from 2016 (4% to 8%). Same for LGBT Americans, up from 13% in 2016 to 28% in 2020. Among Hispanic Americans, he saw 34% support in 2020, compared to 30% support last cycle. (By the way, a further breakdown of the Latino vote showed Cuban Americans support Trump more than Biden, with 52%, and South Americans come in at 40%.) In a different metric, we saw 35% of Muslims and 30% of Jews support Trump.

      Considering the vote totals in 2020 compared to 2016, even as significant portions of the vote are still being counted, we know more than 5 million Hispanic Americans, more than 2 million LGBT Americans and more than 1 million Black Americans voted for Donald Trump. Those are not small numbers - and, most importantly, this improvement comes after seeing four years of this administration.

      So...how did the media take this fact? So far, not particularly well. Here's New York Times columnist Charles Blow, who is "personally devastated" about the figures:

      Blow went on to say "Also, the percentage of LGBT voting for Trump doubled from 2016. DOUBLED!!! This is why LGBT people of color don’t really trust the white gays" (although we have no racial breakdown on the LGBT vote).

      Anand Giridharadas, a prominent progressive writer who is certainly from the left but someone I usually find reasonable, assessed things this way: "A terrifying number of Americans would prefer to see their republic wither than have to share it with Others." (Quite a conclusion, considering a later conclusion of his was "Too many of us are not only unable to persuade people on the other side but also unwilling to try, uninterested in winning people over." Not going to do it this way!)

      On The View this morning, Sunny Hostin said that just because you vote for Trump doesn't make you a racist, but, and you know what's coming: "If you voted for him, then all of those things are ok with you because of your own personal circumstance."

      Obviously if you voted for Donald Trump you don't support every last thing he does or says - just like if you voted for Joe Biden you don't think "you ain't Black" if you voted for Trump. This insta-reaction from the media portends the total lack of humility and introspection that will be coming after all the 2020 votes are counted - a geographically-biased press that's largely unrepresentative of the country it refuses to serve.

      Donald Trump may win, or he may not. But this election made it clear the American public is not buying into the media narrative about him. It should be a wake-up call to the legacy press.”

      Steve Krakauer

      Delete
    2. We here wouldn't give a shit about "Hispanic", "black", or "LGBT": your 'identity' (if you want to have one) is your private business.

      The essence of this schism is clear: the working people are for the Commander, -- and the city-based bureaucrats/pencil-pushers and assorted rabble, none of whom has done a single day of honest work in their life, are against.

      And that's all there's to it.

      Delete
    3. Let's have the press spend the next 4 years studying the Biden voter and what makes them tick.
      Asking Republicans to take into account how Biden voters feel about everything they say and do on a daily basis will also be nice.

      #thegandersayshello

      Delete
    4. The press needs to stop playing "identity politics" and ignore the whining from the white working class.

      Delete
    5. Ccelia,
      The press also ran with Reagan"s drug war and tried to tell us that drugs were bad.
      The election results in Oregon (Drugs was the winner in the drug war) make it clear the American public is not buying into the media narrative. It should also be a wake-up call to the legacy press.

      Delete
    6. Is that he same legacy press that tried to sell Trump voters as "economically anxious", as if there was a Trump voter who knows something about economics?

      Delete
    7. Mao,
      Trump gave the elites a HUGE tax break while they were sitting on piles of cash.
      Trump voters noticed, and rejected his Presidency, resulting in a mandate for Joe Biden.

      Delete
    8. Hey Dixie,

      So, I can't tell, are you in favor of beheading Fauci and FBI Director Chris Wray, and setting their heads on pikes outside the WH front doors as a warning or not? Thanks in advance.

      BTW did you happen to catch the whiney ass crybaby fucking lunatic lying sack of shit president at his conference last night? I mean, WOW EEE WOW WOW WOW!!! Don't fucking tell me about the detestable people in this country who happily voted for that piece of shit loser. Have a nice day.

      Delete
    9. “ No matter the outcome, the media owes it to the public to learn more about Trump voters."
      ---Steve Krakauer

      "Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war; liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers."
      ---Karl Rove

      Delete
    10. "...a geographically-biased press that's largely unrepresentative of the country it refuses to serve."

      I'd love to see the government force the press to serve the people. Maybe that's what the (allegedly big government) Democrats should do to win over Trump voters.

      Delete
    11. Cecelia, the exit polls only involve less than half the voters and is weighted towards Repubs, as most voters voted via mail in.

      Until you address this point, you are a complete fraud.

      Delete
  11. "And BTW I thought we progressives are the snowflakes."

    Q. How many Right-wing accusations are confessions?
    A. All of them, Katie.

    ReplyDelete
  12. 2020 Latest: Judge nixes Trump bid to stop Philly vote count
    Source: AP

    A federal judge has denied a bid by President Donald Trump’s campaign to stop the vote count in Philadelphia over observer access, urging the two sides to instead forge an agreement.

    U.S. District Judge Paul S. Diamond suggested each party be allowed 60 observers inside a hall at a downtown convention center where the final ballots are being tallied. As the hearing unfolded Thursday evening, President Donald Trump and former Vice President Joe Biden were locked in a tight battle for the 20 electoral votes in Pennsylvania.

    Diamond, an appointee of President George W. Bush, chastened the lawyers as both sides bickered about who was following the rules and reminded them they are officers of the court.

    “Really, can’t we be responsible adults here and reach an agreement?” the exasperated judge asked. “The whole thing could (soon) be moot.”

    Read more: https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-joe-biden-donald-trump-elections-local-governments-0ece596f97029ddcaae612e9929cf829

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "...can't we be reasonable adults here and reach an agreement?"

      Nope

      https://6abc.com/pennsylvania-convention-center-attack-plot-pa-election-2020/7689932/

      Delete
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  15. “No one is asking you anything. Keep being you.”
    Keep working on connecting the dots between other people’s comments and your thought processes. Notwithstanding the remarkable 4-8% eruption in Black female Trump supporters ( and they will be very hard pressed to find anyone in his administration or any version of the Republican senate that looks like them; same goes for LGBT voters), I fail to see your point. All the handwringing about what the liberal press needs to understand about the populace fails completely to understand the role of the press in a presidency that has logged in over 20,000 bare faced lies. You would perhaps like to travel back to 1939 Germany and ask us to better empathize with the prevailing mindset. I have plenty of friends who voted for Trump. They have their own media outlet that you conveniently fail to mention despite its being a driving force here. When James Murdoch quit the board of directors at Newscorp he later explained that he did so because he had no control over the day to day operations of the company and that he could not remain caretaker of an enterprise whose business model is distributing misinformation. I don’t so much feel sorry for those whose intellectual curiosity about the world is satisfied by Fox and Friends as I do the world they would like to control. The legacy press as you quaintly describe it, has failed if anything in calling attention to the propaganda and falsehoods perpetuated by that media outlet: birtherism, swift boating, and endless phoney Clinton scandals. So rather than ask me and others why we don’t understand a demographic that feeds on such pap, ask yourself why did so many thoughtful conservatives abandon the Republican Party in the last 4 years?

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  19. Did exit polling only get conducted at election sites where people showed up to vote in person? If so then exit polls this year will be pretty useless given the percentage that were mail-in votes and the heavy skewing of mail-in votes towards Democrats of course.

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    Hi guys I'm Franklin , I was disorganized because i had a very small penis, about 2.0 inches soft and 4 inches hard not nice enough to satisfy my woman, i have been in so many relationship, but cut off because of my situation, i have used so many product which doctors prescribe for me, but none could offer me the help i searched for. i saw some few comments on the internet about this herbal doctor called Dr Aziba and decided to contact him on whatsApp with his mobile no (+2348100368288) i saw on the internet, I decided to give his herbal product a try. he gave me some comforting words with his herbal product for Penis Enlargement, Within 1 week of it, i began to feel the enlargement of my penis, " and now it just 3 weeks of using his products my penis is about 9 inches longer, and i had to settle out with my Ex girlfriend, i was surprised when she said that she is satisfied with my sex and i have got a large penis. Am so happy, thanks to Dr Aziba I also learn that Dr Aziba also help with Breast Enlargement Hips and Bums Enlargement, Low Sperm Count, If you are in any situation with a little Penis, weak ejaculation, small breast_hips_bums do get to Dr Aziba contact him now on his mobile no, or add him up on whatsApp (+2348100368288) Email ( Priestazibasolutioncenter@gmail. com )

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  22. My name is Joel dwin  am from Texas US. I want to share a testimony of how Dr DADA herbal mixture product saves me from shame and disgrace, my penis was a big problem to me as the size was really so embarrassing,and i was also having weak erection problem. I cant make love to my wife and my penis was just too small, a full grown man like me having 4 inches penis and to worsen it i don't last in sex, i cant even last two minutes it was really a thing of shame to me. My wife was really tired of me because my sex life was very poor,she never enjoyed sex,i was always thinking and searching for solutions everywhere until when i saw a testimony of how Dr.DADA  herbal product have been helping people regarding their sex life, so i decided to give him a try and to my greatest surprise in less than one week of taking the herbs my penis grow to 8 inches i couldn't believe my eyes and as i speak now my penis is now 8 inches and i do not have week erection again. I can make love to my wife longer in bed. And my marriage is now stable,my wife now enjoy me very well in bed. You can contact him via drdadaspellhome7@gmail.com  or Whatsapp him +22367565345

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  23. I just got my wife back through the help of genuine love spell caster dr Odion. Ever since Dr Odion helped me, my wife is very stable, faithful and closer to me than before. You can also contact this spell caster and get your relationship fix. Here his contact, WhatsApp him at:  +234813 648 2342  
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  25. Contact DR DADA for Your Penis Enlargement pills which is capable of turning  your sex life from a laughing stock into a paradise. i had my penis grown from 4 inches to 10 inches and my sex life is wonderful contact DR DADA today to get your penis issue fixed he also cures sickness with his herbal medication my Aunt was cured of herpes as a results of DR DADA Herbal medication he cures lots of sickness, HIV/AID, HSV 1&2, CANCER, ASTHMA, HPV, COPD and lots more get in touch with him on today and get what bothering YOU soled mail (drdadaspellhome7@gmail.com) OR WHATAPP +22367565345  

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