ACHAEANS: Top scribes reason like Achaeans!

FRIDAY, MAY 10, 2024

What triggered Achaean rage? "Man [sic] is the rational animal," he's widely said to have said.

We're referring to Aristotle, no last name required, an intellectual giant of the age of Classical Greece—an intellectual giant who also offered the view that all matter is composed of earth, water, air, and fire, though he also threw in hot, cold, wet, and dry, or who at least said something roughly to that effect.

Are we humans really "rational animals," as that term is now understood in the colloquial sense? Are even our high-end, mainstream journalists capable of such behavior at times of major cultural stress—as, for example, when a badly disordered former president faces 34 criminal charges in a Gotham trial which the pundits will discuss on TV all through the day and the night, ignoring all other news events as the otherwise boring hours slip quite pleasurably past?

In the New York Times, on Morning Joe, we've seen astonishing flights of novelization in the past several days. It seems to us that many of our own Blue America's major thought leaders have been reasoning like a bunch of Achaeans—though we'd have to say that, if anything, the conduct of those warriors from the late Bronze Age possibly made more sense.

(Good God! In the first ten minutes of this morning's show, Mika Brzezinski offered this deduction—she said that when Stormy Daniels said she saw a certain toiletry in Donald J. Trump's hotel room, that "proved" that the alleged sex actually happened. 

(We'll present the full transcript when it becomes available. That said, where on earth—where in the world—do they go to find good and decent, "well-educated" people who are able to "reason" like that?)

Returning, if only for now, to the conduct of the Achaeans:

We return at this time to the western world's first great "poem of war." As the famous poem begins, the Achaeans have been laying siege to sacred Troy for something approaching ten years.

They've been fighting and dying, in the dust and the mud, for more than nine years at this point. Every time Agamemnon melts down and suggests that they sail home admitting defeat, headstrong warriors rise to insist that they stay and continue to fight. 

Why did the Achaeans do that? What led them to do such things?

To answer your question, we turn to Professor Knox's lengthy essay, which serves as the formal Introduction to Robert Fagles' 1990 translation of this famous poem. At the start of his Introduction, Professor Knox describes the state of play as the Iliad begins:

INTRODUCTION

THE ILIAD 

"Iliad" is a word that means "a poem about Ilium" (i.e., Troy). and Homer's great epic poem has been known as "The Iliad" ever since the Greek historian Herodotus so referred to it in the fifth century B.C. But the title is not an adequate description of the contents of the poem, which are best summed up in its opening line: "the rage of Peleus' son Achilles." 

The incident that provoked Achilles' rage took place in the tenth and final year of the Achaean attack on Troy, and though Homer does work into his narrative scenes that recall earlier stages of the war  (the muster of the Achaean forces in Book 2, for example, and Priam's first sight of Agamemnon and the other Achaean chieftains in Book 3), the rage of Achilles—its cause, its course and its disastrous consequences—is the theme of the poem, the mainspring of the plot.

Indeed! Within the Fagles translation, Book One—the first "book" of twenty-four—is called "The Rage of Achilles." 

That said, the rage of Agamemnon, lord of men, also dominates that first book. But what are these gentlemen enraged about? 

The gentlemen are enraged about the only topic which actually matters, back then but also perhaps today. Professor Knox continues:

Chryses, a priest of Apollo, whose daughter has been carried off by the Achaeans in one of their raids, comes to the camp to ransom her. But she has been assigned, in the division of the booty, to the king who commands the Achaean army, Agamemnon, and he refuses to give her up. Her father prays for help to Apollo, who sends a plague that devastates the Achaean camp. 

Achilles, leader of the Myrmidons. one of the largest contingents of the Achaean army, summons the chieftains to an assembly. There they are told by the prophet Calchas that the girl must be returned to her father. Agamemnon has to give her up, but demands compensation for his loss. 

Achilles objects: let Agamemnon wait until more booty is taken. A violent quarrel breaks out between the two men, and Agamemnon finally announces that he will take recompense for his loss from Achilles, in the form of the girl Briseis, Achilles' share of the booty. 

Achilles represses an urge to kill Agamemnon and withdraws from the assembly, threatening to leave for home, with all his troops, the next day. The priest's daughter is restored to him. Apollo puts an end to the plague, and Briseis is taken away from Achilles' tent by Agamemnon's heralds.

So begins the western world's earliest detailed account of human conduct. 

The Achaeans have stolen an array of young woman to be held for sexual purposes. When one of these young women must be returned to her father, Agamemnon lord of men says he will take the young woman assigned to Achilles as compensation for his loss.

This provokes the rage of Achilles, which in turn provokes the rage of Agamemnon. Soon, Nestor the seasoned charioteer rises in council, attempting to calm the two enraged men. He offers advice to each party:

Don't seize the girl, Agamemnon, powerful as you are—
leave her, just as the sons of Achaea gave her,
his prize from the very first.
And you, Achilles, never hope to fight it out
with your king, pitting force against his force:
no one can match the honors dealt a king, you know,
a sceptered king to whom great Zeus gives glory.
Strong as you are—a goddess was your mother—
he has more power because he rules more men.

Nestor advises Agamemnon to let Achilles keep Briseis as his rightful "prize." Also, he advises Achilles to avoid a war with Agamemnon—with the sceptered king to whom Zeus has given such glory.

Eventually, Briseis is taken away from Achilles' tents by Agamemnon's heralds. So begins the violent quarrel which almost dooms the Achaeans' siege of Troy.

As far as we know, there is no point in this ancient poem where anyone, Trojan or Achaean, expresses moral disapproval of the cultural practice in question here. Inside the walls of Troy, King Prim's halls contain women who have been taken in successful military operations in the past. 

At one point, Hector—a Trojan prince and the noblest figure in the poem—describes for his wife the way she will be taken away after sacred Troy falls. Plainly, Hector is a loving husband and father, but he pulls few punches as describes Andromache's almost certain fate.

At any rate, the question of who owns Briseis triggers the rage of Achilles. And the rage of Achilles—"its cause, its course and its disastrous consequences—is the theme of the poem, the mainspring of the plot."

That said, why did the Achaeans ever sail for Troy in the first place? Why have they spent more than nine years dying in the mud and the dust?

Professor Knox spells that out a bit later in his essay. How did it get this far? His brief account goes like this:

There are in the poem two human beings who are godlike, Achilles and Helen. One of them, Helen. the cause of the war, is so preeminent in her sphere, so far beyond competition in her beauty, her power to enchant men, that she is a sort of human Aphrodite. In her own element she is irresistible. Every king in Greece was ready to fight for her hand in marriage, but she chose Menelaus, king of Sparta. 

When Paris, the prince of Troy, came to visit, she ran off with him, leaving husband and daughter, without a thought of the consequences for others. Her willful action is the cause of all the deaths at Troy, those past and those to come. When she left with Paris she acted like a god, with no thought of anything but the fulfillment of her own desire, the exercise of her own nature. But when the Iliad opens she has already come to realize the meaning for others of her actions, to recognize that she is a human being. She criticizes herself harshly as she speaks to Priam:

"if only death had pleased me then, grim death,
that day I followed your son to Troy, forsaking
my marriage bed, my kinsmen and my child . . ."

In his essay, Professor Knox is remarkably hard on Helen, radiance of women. She is described as "the cause of the war." The feckless Paris isn't similarly charged.

At any rate, the rage of Achilles doesn't occur until a decade has passed. The problem started when Helen, radiance of woman, left her Achaean husband and married Paris, a prince of Troy.

This blow to tribal honor leads the Achaean warriors to spend the next ten years of their lives killing and dying in the mud. It's all about who's zoomin' who. It's all about access to young women—access to those who have been stolen and to those who chose to leave.

Within the four corners of the Iliad, this is the only thing the Achaeans seem able to care about. Over and over and over again, this has been the one part of life concerning which the rational animals of our mainstream press corps seem able to become fully engaged.

There are very few policy questions which engages them in any real way. They can't be forced to discuss such matters in the way they want to discuss the way certain public officials may have had sex, on one or possibly ten occasions, with some woman who wasn't their wife.

This is all they seem to care about. Few things could be more obvious.

To appearances, this is the way our human brains may perhaps be wired. On the lower ends of our functioning, our brains are wired to care about this and about little else—and, ideally, to turn our presidential elections into a set of stampedes in search of the answers to such eternal questions.

There's a great deal more to be said about the role of the various women in the Iliad—the women who live inside the walls of Troy and the young women who have been stolen by the Achaean invaders.

There's also a great deal more to be said about the sexual politics of our modern mainstream press corps—a sexual politics which barely exists, except when these pre-rational animals are given the chance to spend their days, and their nights, speculating about the (alleged) sexual behavior of the political figures of whom they disapprove.

(They will typically disappear the sexual misconduct of the pols they still revere.)

It's all about who's zoomin' who! Litle else actually seems to matter to these feckless modern humans, who may sometimes seem to resemble a group of time-travelled Achaeans.

We moderns! We pretend to engage in journalism. We pretend to author important moral judgments. But are we actually reasoning like a bunch of Achaeans?

We'd be inclined to say the answer is yes, though a great deal remains to be said.

"Man [sic] is the rational animal," Aristotle is widely said to have said. In fairness, he never read the New York Times, and he never watched the gang on Morning Joe.

He never saw how little these people seem to care about the actual lives of others. He was never exposed to the novels they're inclined to compose as they while away their hours.

Aristotle got certain things right. Depending on what he actually meant, we'd say he got that one thing wrong.

The journalists have been amazing this week. When Mika said that Stormy's statement amounted to proof, no one on the "cable news" panel rose to say, "Hold on!"


180 comments:

  1. "(Good God! In the first ten minutes of this morning's show, Mika Brzezinski offered this deduction—she said that when Stormy Daniels said she saw a certain toiletry in Donald J. Trump's hotel room, that "proved" that the alleged sex actually happened."

    If Stormy Daniels could name items in Trump's toiletry bag, it proves she had access to it and was in his bathroom. That does substantiate that she did meet with him there. Trump claims that whole meeting never happened. If it never happened, how could she identify such items?

    I don't know about you, but I don't own a pair of gold tweezers. That is not a common item that someone might mention by accident.

    Somerby mocks Mika for mentioning this as proof, but I think it does substantiate Daniels' testimony and show that Trump is lying. The jury may too.

    But the strongest evidence that the sex happened is Trump's payoff. His own behavior screams guilt.

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    1. How do you know Trump had good tweezers?

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    2. I'll bet Trump doesn't use condoms because they would become evidence of the tryst, like Monica's dress stain. That, and he is only concerned with his own pleasure and needs. That long conversation about STDs was not for Stormy's benefit, although I think he put her at risk too.

      Stormy's description of their small talk is very convincing to me, and it would be hard to make up.

      Somerby obviously wants to declare that Trump is telling the truth, short of a DNA test on the semen and preferably a video of the encounter. Juries must deal with the evidence that exists. That means they must evaluate the credibility of the witnesses and the likelihood of what they said occurred. Stormy had a picture of herself with Trump placing them both at the Tahoe tournament, and a slew of details that make sense in terms of what we know about Trump.

      When Biden was accused, the details made no sense in the context of Biden's behavior, even as a handsy guy. There were no female employees or staff who had similar experiences, nothing about Biden's life that fit Tara Reade's claims about him. Trump is the opposite. Lots of corroboration for Stormy's account, lots of similar encounters and women coming forward with similar experiences, and he lies all the time about everything.

      You would have to work very hard to believe Trump over Daniels under the circumstances, but Somerby is more than willing to make that effort.

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    3. Do you believe that Stormy was telling the truth when she swore that the affair never happened?

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    4. I believe that if she was under an NDA, she was not permitted to talk about what happened, with a penalty of $1 million for each breach of the agreement.

      Daniels did say that there was no "affair" because it was a one-time event that she felt coerced into, and because there was no love and no relationship involved (which is typically part of what is meant by affair).

      I do not believe Daniels has lied about any of her testimony given under oath in this trial. She is smart enough to avoid placing herself in legal jeopardy when Trump's legal team is so antagonistic and has the means to disprove her statements if they were false.

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    5. She did not have sexual relations with that man.

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    6. I did not have sexual relations with that woman. DJT

      I never met her in Tahoe except to take a photo. DJT

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    7. This comment does not address Somerby's core point about the irrationality of focusing on sex over more important matters.

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    8. It's not about sex, it's about perjury.

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    9. The comment is about sex, not perjury.

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    10. Sex is more important than perjury, politics, and blogging — combined.

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    11. Things are not going well for Trump and Somerby is angry about it.

      Somerby has consistently ignored Trump's illegalities, unlike the press, and has instead focused on the sex.

      So it is funny when he accuses others of what he himself is doing, and then even funnier when he randomly launches into a long description of The Iliad, it is like he is saying "see I have dementia too, we all have dementia, it is normal, Trump is normal".

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    12. 12:17: Daniels testified fir 2 days. The trial has been going on for some time, and will continue for some weeks. The media has been right there through it all, describing the testimony about illegal campaign assistance schemes, and they will continue to follow it closely until the bitter end. They are not focusing on the sex. That was just one part of the trial. That part is now presumably over. Got it?

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    13. If She is a lair, She does her homework, because gold tweezers fit perfectly with the photos of garish bad taste that is Trump’s hallmark. As Bob loves to say, it only takes one juror. But if the coverage is reliable at all, her two day testimony was a feminist triumph, and the pathetic woman who decided to defend Trump made bubbling errors, no doubt on his insistence.
      I like that it makes you nervous and prissy, and leaves Bob speechless, able only to lead his High School English Class.

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    14. I'm a feminist through and through, but to call Stormy a feminist heroine is a bit much. She had sex with a married man (she says) and then bagged $130K to keep silent. I wouldn't put her up there with Susan B. Anthony.

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    15. 11:58 - Your Clintonian parsing won't do. Stormy admitted that her statement was a "lie."

      “So you signed and released a statement that said, ‘I am not denying this affair because I was paid in hush money … I’m denying it because it never happened.’ That’s a lie?” Cooper asked.

      “Yes,” Daniels responded, going on to say she did so because parties involved “made it sound like I had no choice.”

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    16. Anon 11:28, you are simply false in contending that TDH "obviously wants to declare that Trump is telling the truth." You are disconnected from reality. TDH has explicitly said that he believes Trump did have sex with her. there is an inherit flaw in your ability to understand English. It's a he said -she said dispute between Trump and Daniels. TDH's beef is with reporters who simply assert that what Daniels says is the truth, as opposed to being "allegedly' true," which is the correct way to characterize her testimony. I think she had sex with trump, but i don't know and neither do you. (I tend to think she is probably embellishing about the details of what happened about 18 years ago). Even the judge said she had credibility issues. But in this case, whether she is telling the truth about the one-time intimate event isn't relevant to the charges against Trump, even if she is lying about that. There's all this focus on the lurid details, which apparently was only allowed into evidence because Trump's lawyers apparently "opened the door" so that it could be admitted.

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    17. @2:07 PM
      I can't imagine how Trump's lawyers (or anyone else) could "open the door" to all that totally irrelevant shit. To me, the judge is obviously unhinged.

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    18. Stormy said if Trump was a real man he would have been sworn in and explained to the jury how she was lying.

      But he is a small minded man who compensates by being an insufferable ass.

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    19. We know Trump had gold tweezers because he would have denied it if he didn't have them. There are other people who can testify about whether he has them or not.

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    20. anon 5:21, whether he had gold tweezers or not, or whether he banged Stormy or not, really are relevant, especially the tweezers. I would assume the prosecution isn't going to call any witnesses to substantiate her testimony that Trump had gold tweezers.

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    21. anon did Stormy say that? i wasn't aware of it. Not that it means anything. Did you know that Stormy sued Trump for defamation, and her complaint was dismissed by the district court; she appealed and lost the appeal; and, the Court ordered her to pay Trump's legal fees in an amount exceeding $300,000? I don't know if that came up when she was cross-examined.

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    22. She also sued to have the NDA removed. She prevailed in that case and Trump was ordered to pay her legal fees. The judge determined that the NDA was unenforceable.

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    23. So, if you believe Stormy is now telling the truth (as opposed to when she denied the tryst):

      First she promised not to tell in exchange for $130K; next she broke her promise and told everybody; and then she kept the cash anyway.

      Do I have that right?

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    24. Stormy owes Trump over 500k,

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    25. That is more evidence that her story is true. Trump uses the courts to bully those with legitimate claims against him. The money she owes is for court costs (attorney fees) not because he obtained a judgment against her for anything. Trump runs up the lawyer fees until his opponents cannot afford to keep going with their cases.

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    26. AD/MA, Stormy told her story after going to court to have the NDA voided. There is a long history of her attempts to escape the NDA. Read the legal timeline:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormy_Daniels%E2%80%93Donald_Trump_scandal

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  2. Donald Trump's disdain for Republican voters is something the media should emulate.

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  3. "So begins the western world's earliest detailed account of human conduct."

    Somerby chooses to disbelieve Stormy Daniels, but he fully believes the made-up fictional account in the Iliad, even though there is no way Homer (if he existed) could have known any of the details recounted.

    Somerby's preference for a fiction in which women are traded like poker chips over Daniels' highly detailed and consistent account of Trump's embarrassing behavior shows that Somerby not only cannot recognize truth when he hears it, but he prefers only the fictions that suit his preferred narratives -- the one that says a woman has no right or ability to humiliate a man who uses her for sex and then pretends she never existed. (The same could be said about his treatment of Melania during that time period.)

    Ask yourself why Somerby is so obsessed with this poem. It has no appeal to women. Most of the men who comment here are also bored with it. Why does Somerby cling to it?

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    1. Somerby keeps saying that the Iliad portrays human nature, that the stuff in it is bred in the bone, and so on. I suspect he wants to extend that to the treatment of women in the Iliad and say that our modern society is aberrant because it is human nature for men to subjugate women, treat them like property, steal and trade them to each other, and that it is women's lot to accept such treatment.

      That is right out of the manosphere and the men's rights playbook. It is what right wing extremists believe, incels, religious nuts seeking tradwives. Somerby knows it would make him unpalatable as a pretend liberal to come right out and say such stuff, so he lets the Iliad say it for him, then endorses Homer's ideas as human nature.

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    2. This comment misses Somerby’s primary critique, which is not about the truthfulness of Daniels’ account versus the "Iliad" but about the irrational of modern journalism. It is more focused on critiquing Somerby’s character and preferences.

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    3. 12:21: do you believe that reporting on this trial is irrational, or is that Somerby’s contention, in your view?

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    4. 12:21 I haven't watched or read any of the reporting on this trial.

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    5. 11:35 - Now we're criticizing Somerby for what you "suspect he wants." And what you "suspect he wants" is to "steal and trade" women.

      Not what I would call a charitable reading of Somerby's post.

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    6. This Somerby-hate has become unhinged.

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    7. If you listen to some of the incel discussions online, they want the government to assign them a woman (for sexual purposes) so they don't have to learn how to appeal to someone by forming a relationship. The appeal of stealing and trading women for such guys is obvious. They also discuss the legitimacy of rape. It is very creepy over there. That's why Somerby is disguising his attitudes by discussing what happened in Troy, and not stating his views directly. He knows these attitudes are not socially appropriate and would mark him as a fringe asshole.

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    8. I just heard someone a row over in the library release a long fanny-burp.

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  4. "It's all about who's zoomin' who. It's all about access to young women—access to those who have been stolen and to those who chose to leave.

    Within the four corners of the Iliad, this is the only thing the Achaeans seem able to care about. Over and over and over again, this has been the one part of life concerning which the rational animals of our mainstream press corps seem able to become fully engaged."

    Does this seem likely to be true to you? It doesn't to me. None of our country's wars have been fought over women. None of our history turns on it.

    Are journalists obsessed with sex? Not so much. Most of the daily news concerns a wide variety of other topics, and the hard news is not about relationships or sex but about money, territory, who is bombing who over land, about health and pandemic, climate change and natural disasters. Sex is relegated to celebrity news, which is not the majority of stories and doesn't motivate elections or current events.

    Trump does not conform to current norms or to history and that is why he is in trouble. He rapes women and gets caught, tried and owes restitution. He lies and cheats and gets convicted for business fraud. He is too stupid to be president and that makes the news. But none of that is noble, the way Somerby portrays the Achaeans. Trump is slime and we are taking out the garbage. It is a dirty job but someone must do it. And no, journalists are not sex-obsessed. If anyone is sex-obsessed, it is Trump, and then only because it feeds his narcissism. Not because he is drawn like a magnet to beautiful and has to just start kissing. Pathetically, it is because he thinks that makes him a man and he is terrified that he is less than manly, which of course makes him a craven bully, unlike Homer's heroes, villains, kings and even the women in the Iliad.

    Somerby cannot see that, or maybe he just needs the money he perhaps earns by defending this piece of shit. But he really does seem to take pleasure in attacking Stormy Daniels and mocking Mika for talking about court testimony.

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    1. Adolf Hitler hated Eleanor Roosevelt.

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    2. This comment focuses more on critiquing Trump and defending journalists than engaging with Somerby’s critique of the media’s focus on sensationalism.

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    3. A former president who tried to overturn the election by illegal means, culminating in a mob attack in the US Capitol, and who illegally took top secret documents and stored them in the bathroom of his club and who has been charged with these crimes is pretty sensational. In fact, it’s unique in American history. So you can understand the media focus, not as sensationalism, but as a historically unique story of some importance, since said former president is running for the office a second time.

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  5. Mika Brzezinski is a good decent person.

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    1. Somerby is upset because he tried out for her job and got nowhere close to becoming a TV journalist.

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  6. Aristotle would be amazed and impressed by the technical achievement of television. But I doubt he would consider it an example of rationality. If Aristotle's sex slave were stolen, he would shrug and ask someone to bring him another. No one becomes passionately obsessed with a woman he doesnt' consider an equal, unless it reflects poorly on his "honor" (which actually refers to his manhood) for which any sacrifice is warranted. It is men like Somerby who worry about zoomin, but it is really only about their own fragile sexual ego. Men who will tan their balls to enhance virility will kill a woman who laughs at them, as Stormy plainly did to Trump on the stand. Somerby cares about that, not about who is zoomin who.

    Somerby will not and cannot believe what Stormy says because it would diminish Trump (and by extension, all men) too much if her story were true. But it is true, so guys need to deal with it. Meanwhile, women's outrage over loss of abortion rights is going to keep Biden in office. Unlike in the Iliad, women today have agency, can vote, and will determine who wins the next election. Stormy is symbolic of that reality. Of course Somerby doesn't like it.

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    1. I'd never tan my balls, but I would like to zoom with Cecelia, because she likes the Iliad.

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    2. You are gentleman enough to ask and not just assume she likes you back.

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    3. Anonymouse 10:44am, I like Breaking Bad too, so keep that in mind.

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    4. I’ve never read Breaking Bad. Does a character tan his balls?

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    5. FYI Cecelia is a man who pretends to be a woman.

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    6. That’s OK. I’m a man who pretends to be a man.

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    7. Anonymouse 12:54pm, just like Rachel Levine?

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    8. anon 12;54 is a man who is able to make assertions without a scintilla of evidence, he just makes things up, just what we need in these troubled times.

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    9. I roasted my balls. They taste like chicken.

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    10. I boil meatballs in tomato sauce. Delicious and nutritious.

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    11. There is no evidence for or against the proposition that Cecelia is male or female. We don't know. Some here are choosing to believe "she" is female and others choose to believe "she" is male pretending to be female. I think it is polite to accept a person as whatever gender they prefer and Cecelia refers to herself as female, but that doesn't mean I know or care what she actually is in real life. Either way, I do not like her or agree with much that she says. She would be the same undereducated boob whether male or female.

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    12. Anonymouse 6:33pm, I surely would be.

      I’ve never used my gender as an appeal for special knowledge or experience. This is a blogboard. It doesn’t matter.

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  7. Under Joe Biden's greatest Presidency my productivity of posting delicious word-salads in Somerby's blog rose by 18%. Somerby is an ass.

    I am Corby.

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  8. Barbara Stauffacher Solomon has died.

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  9. "At one point, Hector—a Trojan prince and the noblest figure in the poem—describes for his wife the way she will be taken away after sacred Troy falls. Plainly, Hector is a loving husband and father, but he pulls few punches as describes Andromache's almost certain fate."

    How can Somerby conclude that Hector is a loving husband and father, after describing the way he explains to her that she is property, that her family can and will be torn apart. Further, she must have been aware of that consequence of war, and yet he must explain it all to her, as if she were a child or were living in a vacuum, or were mentally retarded? This passage is for the reader, but what purpose does it serve?

    Helen is treated brutally. She is required to choose from among suitors she barely knows and then is blamed for the entire war when she makes a different choice later on. Was the first choice really hers? Blaming the entire siege and war on Helen strikes me as facile. Why didn't the abandoned husband simply move on? This is like today's scorned man who hauls out a gun and shoots his ex when she dares to leave him. Does that suggest that women actually have any freedom to choose who they will live with? Then or now? And this is why men in Congress take no action on Domestic Violence bills, why police still will not enforce them, why men who mistreat women are lionized instead of despised (c.f. Trump).

    Somerby loves this poem because it represents a time when men had power and women were plot devices, punished for rejecting men. Dustin Hoffman is the hero in Kramer vs Kramer, not Meryl Streep. And Stormy has no business complaining when Trump demanded sex on the assumption that a porn star must give it out to everyone, especially a BSD like himself.

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    1. The right to choose includes the right to un-choose, to leave. No-fault divorce made the women's movement possible, not just abortion. Revised child custody laws made divorce a viable solution for women because men were no longer automatically awarded custody of the children (as property of the man). The men's rights movement has tried to roll back those changes to family law.

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    2. Anonymouse 10:49am, in your pique toward politically incorrect ancient poetry (or rather TDH), keep in mind who killed Agamemnon, that goddesses worked their mischief, and Zeus is henpecked.

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    3. Yes, this is the “women ate empowered by their subjugation” argument.

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    4. Anonymous 12:11 pm, not “empowered by”, but “powerful despite “. Even in 675BC, comrade.

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    5. This comment misses an opportunity to directly address Somerby's comparison of journalists to Achaeans in terms of their focus on sensationalism and personal grievances.

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    6. Zeus was a major rapist.

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    7. Clytemnestra had a valid grievance, but she over-reacted.

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    8. Anonymouse 12:30pm, don’t forget the tribes, mine more than yours.

      The human condition.

      And wouldn’t you know it. He’s cursed by the coven.

      Delete
    9. Journalists are focused on Trump's illegal behavior, it is Somerby that won't let the sex part go.

      Republicans blame the victim as they breathe air.

      Delete
    10. Cecelia, you’re not defending Zeus.

      Delete
    11. Anonymouse 1:20om, Zeus was a major rapist.

      Delete
    12. Yahweh has his problems, but he’s not a rapist, so he’s a big improvement over Zeus.

      Delete
    13. Anonymouse 1:44pm, tell THAT to the Palestinians.

      Delete
    14. Yahweh is a lot worse than Zeus, condemning people to an eternity of hellfire just because they, in good faith, question his existence.

      Delete
    15. If Yahweh is not a rapist how did married Mary get pregnant with his son? Or was Mary no better than Stormy?

      Delete
    16. Anonymouse 2:43pm, if you read one of the New Testament Gospels you will see that Mary was informed of God’s plan and assented to it.

      Delete
    17. So you saying Mary was a horn dog that like getting it on with strangers? Reminds me of Stormy.

      Delete
    18. Anonymouse 3:02pm, quit pretending to be stupider than you actually are simply because you think you're going to rock someone’s world by being sacrilegious.

      Save your dark triad stuff for someone who cares.

      Delete
    19. This topic amuses me as it got me kicked out of Sunday School for repeatedly objecting to the whole father, son, holy ghost nonsense at age five.

      Delete
    20. Anonymouse 5:30pm, it’s too bad that your teacher treated you like that. Kids are naturally curious and questioning. She should have done her best to answer your questions and to allow you to make your own choices as to what you believe.

      Delete
    21. I got kicked out of Sunday School after I told him he was a f#$king religious nutjob.

      Delete
    22. Anonymouse 7:36pm, that would make it very clear that you were already getting an education on Christianity via someone else’s knee.

      Delete
    23. Jews and Arabs share belief in a unitary God, an innovation introduced by the Jews at a time when other cultures were worshipping multiple gods (like the Greeks did). It is why one of the 10 Commandments is about having no other Gods before me.

      Delete
    24. In this respect, Zeus was better than Yahweh.

      Delete
  10. What is Bob’s point? Biden didn’t grab Ivanka and run off with her.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The point is modern journalists often mirror the irrational behaviors of ancient Achaeans by focusing on personal grievances over substantive issues.

      Delete
    2. Mika has a personal grievance against Trump?

      Delete
    3. Anonymouse 12:10pm, yes. Trump had the temerity to make them look like political abettors when he actually won in 2016, rather than merely being their little circus clown featured on Morning Joe.

      Delete
    4. Trump showed them, didn’t he? Especially that horse-faced Mika. Ha! He also showed that lezbo Rosie O’Donnell, too, didn’t he? And most of all, he showed that ****** Obama how everyone will now stand up and take notice of Donald j Trump, winner, and totally not filled with petty grievances.

      Delete
    5. If Trump had tanned his balls he would have been man enough to grab Mika by the pussy.

      Delete
    6. Anonymouse 12:43pm, not Trump. Karma showed Mojo.

      After Trump made them look like sycophants, by being viable and winning, Mika and Joe have had to tie themselves into a pretzel in order to stay relevant in the media.

      Delete
    7. Anonymouse 1:12pm, that’s what Mika does to Joe.

      Delete
    8. It’s what you do to your old man.

      Delete
  11. Does Biden lie? Watch Biden saying that cutting off aid to Israel is “preposterous. It’s beyond my comprehension”
    https://twitter.com/DYShor/status/1788726510896943176/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1788726510896943176&currentTweetUser=DYShor

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Delaying a shipment of arms to put pressure on Netanyahu is not equivalent to "cutting off aid to Israel".

      When a statement is made in one set of circumstances and then the circumstances change, requiring a different policy, was the first statement a lie? A lie is defined as deliberate deception. It would only be a lie if Biden knew he might cut off aid in the future.

      Did you post this remark simply to portray Biden as a liar? It sounds like you did. And then you say "Does" instead of "Did Biden lie" which suggests you want to generalize from one remark to other situations and occasions. Washington Post fact checkers recorded the number of lies told by Trump during his term (30,573), which makes it fair to call Trump a habitual liar.

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/24/trumps-false-or-misleading-claims-total-30573-over-four-years/

      The Washington Post stopped fact checking Biden after 100 days, concluding that he had returned to the previous tradition of spinning and exaggerating but was not outright lying, as Trump did in his term.

      Delete
    2. It was a noble lie. For the children. His heart was bleeding when he broke his word.

      Delete
    3. "The Washington Post stopped fact checking Biden after 100 days"

      Lol. That's funny. Ran out of ink and paper?

      Delete
    4. @11:55 - IMO Biden’s statements are not ordinary lies. They’re just a politician saying what he is supposed to say at a given moment in time. In other words, no promise or statement from Biden or most politicians should be believed. As one on Nixon’s henchman said, “Those facts are no longer operative.”

      Delete
    5. Is it in the same category as Trump promising Mexico would pay for a border wall? Of that he would bring about a healthcare system that was better and cheaper than Obamacare? David?

      Delete

    6. @12:38 PM
      But Donald Trump is different, because, unlike all the career politicians, he often tells the truth.

      Delete
    7. @12:47 Not quite. Trump’s false statements were obvious exaggerations. People knew not to take them literally.

      Delete
    8. In other words, no promise or statement from Trump or most politicians should be believed. Infrastructure week! Replace the ACA with a better plan! Russia Russia Russia was a hoax! I did not fuck Stormy!

      Delete
    9. DIC - sorry about the brain worm infestation. "Trump’s false statements were obvious exaggerations. People knew not to take them literally"

      Delete
    10. How come we pay out tens of billions to Israel to every year, but NATO got to go as they don't pay enough of their GDP for defense?

      Delete
    11. We don't pay Israel money. We sell them weapons at reduced prices.

      Delete
    12. @7:24 NATO membership requires having a certain amount of defense spending. Countries not meeting their commitment are getting US defense but not paying their agreed share. In fact, a number of countries have not been fulfilling their NATO commitments.

      Delete
    13. 107 countries in the world increased defense spending last year

      Delete
    14. Everyone saw Biden win the 2020 Presidential election in a landslide. If you took Trump literally when he exaggerated about winning the 2020 Presidential election, that says more about you than about Trump.

      Delete
  12. Stormy is supposed to submit to Trump because he is like a king. She is being forced to lie about Trump as an act of war. The rest is between the men. Just like the Iliad.

    ReplyDelete
  13. The only reason the media is focusing on this trial is because it’s the only one of the four that hasn’t been stalled. You can believe there would be equal coverage of the others, were they ongoing. The idea that the media merely likes the salaciousness and that’s why they’re covering it is a very weak contention.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Stormy agreed to sex with Trump. Where did this narrative that she was under duress come from?

      Delete
    2. She said she was under a fatass, not under her dress.

      Delete
    3. He was under her dress with her cooperation.

      Delete
    4. How could he be under her dress when she is lying about a thing that never happened?

      Delete
    5. Anonhmouse 6:22pm, she’s not lying.

      Delete
    6. Here is a good discussion of the question about whether Stormy was under pressure or acted freely:

      https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2024/05/kind-of-rapey

      Delete
    7. The only reason she testified is Trump said she is lying. If he said he schlepped with her no Stormy in court. Trump is our former and future commander in chief and would never lie about a serious matter. God Bless the USSR.

      Delete
    8. schlep definition -- "haul or carry (something heavy or awkward)"

      You perhaps mean shtup, to sleep with.

      Delete
  14. The Achaeans “focused on sensationalism and personal grievance?” Says an anon about a dozen times above.

    This isn’t a valid description of the Iliad.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies

    1. Personal grievances (over honor, possession, and revenge) are a central theme in the "Iliad," driving much of the plot.

      Delete
    2. It is mainly Achilles’ grievance that drives the plot. Equating that with “Achaeans” and then saying that they were crazy or irrational seems off the mark.

      Delete
  15. I wonder how Somerby would be as a juror in a case with little or no physical evidence. Quite a few sexual assault and child molestation cases rely heavily on testimony.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Somerby would be skeptical of all testimony, as any juror should.

      Delete
    2. So he would always vote to acquit?

      Delete
    3. Skeptical of ALL testimony.

      Delete
    4. Trials rarely have sufficient evidence to convince someone like Somerby who claims that anything is possible, and then believes whatever he wants without providing any reasons. His fellow jurors, trying to reach the best decision they can with limited evidence, often circumstantial, flawed eye witnesses, contraditions and unanswerable questions, would become frustrated with his refusal to reach a conclusion and his inability to debate the merits of the evidence at hand, instead of claiming that it all might be true or might not be true, no one can know.

      Jurors must reach decision under uncertainty, not perfect knowledge. They do their best. Somerby doesn't understanding what doing one's best under uncertainty means. He doesn't discuss or acknowledge probabilities and he doesn't do inference, and his idea of logic is formal reasoning (as in mathematics not real life).

      I don't think Somerby would ever be selected for a jury because he would flunk voir dire, but if he were, he would be replaced by an alternate due to his unwillingness to deliberate as instructed by the judge. Just as he is unwilling to address topics here in good faith.

      Delete
  16. Anonymouse 12:55pm, new, huh?

    The Iliad has been a touchstone for Bob’s understanding of human nature. If he hated it anonymices would be singing its praises.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sure, Cecelia. And if he liked and defended Biden, I’m sure the pro-Biden anonymous would turn against Biden, because their whole attitude is determined by opposition to Bob Somerby.

      Delete
    2. Sing to us, Muse, about the oldest and coolest epic in the Western canon. Fact or fiction, it rocks. Human nature, generosity and greed, love and misogyny, plans and fate, it’s all there, baby.

      Delete
    3. Sorry, Anonymouse 1:22pm, it doesn’t logically follow that anonymouses have no reason to be belligerent toward Bob, other than that he exists.

      They’re here because he is critical as the entire media and both tribes.

      Delete
    4. And yet, Cecelia, you know your stance is absurd by applying my thought experiment at 1:22.

      Delete
    5. Anonymouse 1:35pm, no, it isn’t absurd to say that you anonymices are at war with TDH and at this point, would attack him no matter what he argued.

      Anonymices either hate what he finds significant or you launch into an attack on his reasons for not supporting or supporting something.

      Delete
    6. I was never critical of Somerby back in the days when he wasn't advancing right wing memes and talking points and seemed to actually want Al Gore to be president. I didn't write any comments back when Somerby seemed genuine. That changed in 2015.

      Delete
    7. Anonymouse 6:48pm, the treatment of Al Gore by the media is something that caused Bob to be watchful and critical of them no matter whose ox is being Gored.

      You don’t have that facility.

      Delete
    8. You have your chronology wrong. Somerby started the blog because the media was being mean to Gore. He also used it to complain about cheating in schools. Early on, he discussed women mistakenly accusing men of sexual assault. It has always been a vanity blog complaining about whatever irks Somerby. Your view of him as some sort of media watchdog is off the mark. Neighborhood crank is more apt.

      Delete
    9. Anonymouse 9:15pm, of course this is Bob’s blog. Of course it’s about any bee in his bonnet. Of course we can ascertain those bees and glean which one is bugging him this week. Of course, his blog is not geared to your sensibilities or to mine. Of course he can be several things at once, including a media critic.

      If you don’t like what he has to say engage him on that, rather than issuing personal insults, character assassinations, and edicts that he have your priorities.

      Otherwise, get your own damn blog.

      Delete
    10. If I start a blog, will you comment there? Otherwise, it’s not worthwhile.

      Delete
    11. Somerby reads the comments on TDH. I know this, because he has made mine disappear on a number of occasions.
      Keep pounding on Bob's nonsense posts, where he repeats Right-wing grievances. It gets to him.

      Delete
  17. Quaker in a BasementMay 10, 2024 at 1:54 PM

    Somewhere, there's an alternate universe, one where media figures and Our Blue Tribe behave correctly:

    PRODUCER: What's on the rundown for tonight's show?
    REPORTER: Well, the president of our country is facing criminal charges.
    PRODUCER: Wait, what? That's never happened before, has it?
    REPORTER: No, this is the first time ever. He's charged with falsifying his business records.
    PRODUCER: Hm, well, that seems trivial. Why is the prosecution making such a big deal about it?
    REPORTER: They say he faked the records to hide some payoffs he made right before the election.
    PRODUCER: Payoffs? Who did he pay?
    REPORTER: A couple of women.
    PRODUCER: Uh huh. And?
    REPORTER: They both claim they had sex with him.
    PRODUCER: Wow. Well, OK. Who are they?
    REPORTER: Well one of them posed for nude photos in a men's magazine. And the other one, she's well...
    PRODUCER: Out with it!
    REPORTER: A...porn star.
    PRODUCER: So you're telling me that the president--before he was president--had sex with these women, paid them to keep quiet about it and then faked the records of the payoffs?
    REPORTER: Yeah. That's about the size of it.
    PRODUCER: Wellllll....nah! What else you got?

    Of COURSE the media is going to cover this story! And they're going to report the allegations that are made. Our Host has, at some length, labored to tell us this is all basic human nature. But he also seems to think the folks who read us the news should be immune to it.

    In a more acceptable universe, maybe the media would ignore the story entirely. But we live in the universe we have, not...you know the rest.


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Quaker, i believe that both sides of the media are not covering the trial adequately. The current case is far-fetched, and has major problems. Trump is charged under a NY statute making it a crime to falsify business records, with intent to defraud. (It's really only one "crime" here, but it's been set out and constantly described as comprising 34 felonies - each invoice from Cohen, each check to Cohen, and each ledger entry is a separate "felony"). In order transform the falsifying business records offense from a misdemeanor to a felony, the prosecution has to prove that the records were created to conceal a second crime. People were wondering what the second crime was, until a short while before the trial started, the prosecution revealed it was a violation of Section 17-152 of the NY Election Law, which statute states "any two or more persons who conspire to promote or prevent the election of any person to a public office by unlawful means and which conspiracy is acted upon by one or more of the parties thereto, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor." It's not clear what "unlawful" means Trump used to promote his election as president (not a New York state office) Apparently, there are no published decisions where anyone was ever convicted under this statute. A factor that is ignored by the coverage I've seen - when the false records were generated, it was well after Trump had been elected. Falsifying the records had no effect on the election, because the falsification occurred after the election was decided. The whole thing is sketchy - it is understandable that someone would believe that the prosecution is politically motivated. If you are going to prosecute an ex-president, I think you should have a case that isn't such a big stretch (to put it mildly). I don't like trump any more than you do, but I also don't think it is right to go after him on this hyped-up theory, no matter how loathsome he may be to me or anyone else. That said, it's possible the jury will convict him, and if that happens, he is sure to appeal, and the Court of Appeals might or might not reverse the conviction. Whether this prosecution will be a plus or a minus for jump in the November election is also in question.

      Delete
    2. Somerby does not suggest journalists should be entirely immune to sensationalism. He suggests a preference for a more rigorous analysis of the sensational stories rather than the simplistic reasoning used in his examples (Mika Brzezinski). He also expresses a need to balance the sensational stories with other important, more substantive news. (" the pundits will discuss on TV all through the day and the night, ignoring all other news events as the otherwise boring hours slip quite pleasurably past?")

      It's an issue of scale and scope, my friend.

      Delete
    3. Far as I can tell, Bob is most pissed about two things:
      1. they criticized Al Gore's attire, and
      2. they don't call Donald Trump insane.

      Delete
    4. In addition to ac/ma’s cogent comment is the testimony that Trump was not the person who decided how to report the payoff money.

      Delete
    5. He has used his privilege to push his other cases past the election. We all saw him try to end American Democracy, negligently steal, store, and lose Top Secret docs, and watched him attack our allies and suck up to Putin for starters. So if this is the one to get him first, I will take it. Screw this nasty ass jerk.

      Delete
    6. What does the election date have to do with his cases?

      Delete
    7. QiB, that dialogue would be utterly believable if you had staged it as being between two attorneys

      Delete
    8. @4:33 PM,
      You sound like you might be suffering from both TDS and the compulsive masturbation disorder.

      Delete
    9. 4:33 A recent poll found that 53% of independents believe that President Biden is more dangerous to democracy than former President Trump.

      Delete
    10. The conspiracy between Trump and Pecker and Cohen, to suppress negative stories about Trump and plant negative stories about his opponents, is also illegal and a crime that was covered up via the fraud involving Trump's business records. That is not a stretch at all but was blatant and is well-documented. AC/MA's unwillingness to acknowledge the rest of this scheme strikes me as motivated to minimize Trump's wrongdoing.

      Regardless of how the jury decides, voters should think carefully about whether Trump deserves another term as president, given his past behavior. Somerby too, but Somerby doesn't seem to want to discuss any of this, at least not directly.

      Delete
    11. @5:19 - No doubt these trials encourage many voter to think about Trump's many instances of past misbehavior.

      However, these trials are also helping Trump. First, they show misbehavior by some Democratic prosecutors and judges, who seem to be trying to put the opposing candidate in jail based on trumped up charges. That action supports an argument that Trump must be elected to protect democracy. We don't want a society where the ins can be re-elected by putting the outs in prison.

      Second, the trials show Trump's strength under pressure. (I can't call it "grace under pressure," because there's nothing graceful about Trump.) Trump is fighting numerous prosecutions and most of the media, yet he keeps ticking. -- making strong speeches and rallies, properly blasting the prosecutors and judges, not backing down an inch. Regardless of how much one dislikes Trump, that's an achievement. Many of us wouldn't cope as well with such a situation.

      Delete
    12. anon 5:19, you parrot what the prosecution claims in the case. You are the one who is unwilling to acknowledge that the case against trump is a stretch. you're an advocate, unable or unwilling to analyze it objectively, or to view it like a lawyer would. You are proof of what TDH keeps pointing out, that the blue and red tribes are both in their own cocoons. Personally, I'm not interested in being in a cocoon.

      Delete
    13. DIC - Don Von Shitzhispantz never surrenders, he only sells pictures of himself surrendering to the court to his deluded followers/suckers.

      Delete
    14. A 3rd way in which the trials may help Trump is simply putting his name at the top of the news, day after day. This certainly helped Trump in the primaries. No Republican opponent could gain traction.

      Whether all this publicity helps or hurts Trump in the general election I don't know. Publicity is good, but is negative publicity good?

      If he's not convicted in the current NY trial, and if no other trial takes place before the election, then I think Trump will gain. He will be perceived as a winner. OTOH if he's convicted of a felony, that will hurt him IMO

      Delete
    15. Name five Trump bills that he signed into law that helped the middle class David in Cal. And no, tax cuts don't count unless making $150,000 or more / year is middle class (it ain't).

      Delete
    16. I agree about the personal tax cut. However, the corporate tax cut promoted the success of American business. That helped all Americans. Even the poorest were helped, because more jobs were available and wages increased.

      Trump got much of the wall built and took many, many other actions that helped reduce illegal immigration. A news study confirms that illegal immigration is not good for the economy.

      Trump kept Putin from invading Ukraine. That saved the US a lot of money that's now going to Ukraine.

      We were over-regulated. Trump reduced regulations, promoting business, meaning more jobs and higher salaries.

      Delete
    17. Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA) of 2017 (reduced tax rates including those earning under $150,000, the child tax credit was increased from $1,000 to $2,000 per child, with up to $1,400 being refundable, benefiting families with children making under $150,000)

      First Step Act of 2018

      Strengthening Career and Technical Education for the 21st Century Act

      Support for Patients and Communities Act

      Economic Growth, Regulatory Relief, and Consumer Protection Act

      Delete
    18. First Step Act of 2018 -- bipartisan bill to aid released prisoners reintegrate, NOT a bill that helps middle class

      Strengthening Career etc. -- bipartisan reauthorization of the Perkins bill, an education bill not targeted to any income level, pre-existing so no additional help to the middle class

      Support for Patients and Communities Act -- a bill targeting hospitals to help them deal more effectively with opioid abuse and treatment. Bipartisan (99-1) and not targeted to middle class because drug use affects all classes.

      Economic Growth etc. -- passed by Republicans with some Democratic help. Reduces regulations on lending institutions and mortgages, especially for rural properties. Targeted, specific and largely unhelpful to middle class people not in rural areas. Part of Trump's rollback of regulation, misnamed as a consumer protection bill but helping institutions not those seeking loans.

      Delete
    19. Try again, David.

      Delete
    20. I thought you wanted five Trump bills that he signed into law that helped the middle class. But you want five Trump bills that he signed into law that were targeted only to help all of the middle class and no one else. It's true there were no major pieces of legislation exclusively targeting the all of the middle class without also impacting other groups.

      Delete
    21. Those bills don’t help the middle class.

      Delete
    22. Lol. Bills that help with opioid abuse and treatment, help prisoners reintegrate, help fund career and technical education and help small and medium-sized banks increase lending don't help the middle class?

      Only in the new, bizarro, partisan, politics-is-my-religion world. :D

      Delete
    23. David:
      Fourth: It shows Trump running like a scared chickenshit doing everything he can to avoid answering the charges against him.

      How dare he ask for our votes with multiple felony counts hanging over his head and unanswered.

      You are close minded, Dickhead in Cal.

      Delete
    24. The case against Trump doesn't seem very serious. Multiple felonies for each time his accountant recorded payments? Voters are going to see such thin charges as politically motivated. And they will be right, it is politically motivated. We all know this.

      Delete
    25. The case???? Are you fucking stupid? Did you forget about the cases in Florida, and Georgia ;and DC? The cases the chickenshit coward is running from?

      Delete
    26. Blistering outrage of resident idiot-moonbat.

      Delete
    27. I was referring to the New York case. The cases in Fl and DC also don't seem very serious. They are politically motivated. We all know this.

      Delete
    28. Trump is guilty.

      Delete
    29. You can't charge someone with a crime, if they already filed their election papers.
      That's just science.

      Delete
    30. Only if they filed their election papers as Democrat.

      Delete
  18. Somewhere, Gary Hart laughs.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think you meant; Somewhere, Gary Hart cries.

      Delete
  19. Terron India leads the charge with its innovative Fabric Shredding Machine, offering eco-friendly textile recycling solutions that revolutionize the way we manage textile waste.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hello and greeting to you, friend Terron India!

      I have question of it the fabric shedding machine. If I make purchase then it deliver to my home door? THis also shed spike protein powder for consume in break fast?

      Delete
  20. I just heard someone here in the library one row over release a long fanny-burp.

    ReplyDelete
  21. What is the point of these Achean posts?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. These Achean posts are nonsense. Don't waste your time.

      Delete