FRIDAY, MAY 17, 2024
She (almost) gets it right: Elizabeth Spiers is "a contributing Opinion writer" at the New York Times. She's 47 years of age, which sounds like a good age to be.
We could do without the snark lodged in the headline which sits atop her new column. That said, the headline reads as follows—and, if only on balance, we'd say she (almost) has it right:
Dear Boomers, the Student Protesters Are Not Idiots
We could do without the "Dear Boomer" crap. It's also true that many of the current wave of student protesters have at times conducted themselves in ways which seem to be strikingly unwise.
That may not be a shocking fact about people young enough to be students! That said, we'd say that Spier has it right about These Younger People Today.
When younger people display their concern about conditions in Gaza, are they behaving like idiots? We'd have to say that they aren't. Meanwhile, Spiers' column starts like this:
Dear Boomers, the Student Protesters Are Not Idiots
Appearing last week on “Morning Joe,” Hillary Clinton lamented what she views as the ignorance of students protesting the war in Gaza. The host, Joe Scarborough, asked her about “the sort of radicalism that has mainstream students getting propaganda, whether it’s from their professors or from the Chinese Communist government through TikTok.” Ms. Clinton was happy to oblige. “I have had many conversations, as you have had, with a lot of young people over the last many months,” she said. “They don’t know very much at all about the history of the Middle East or frankly about history in many areas of the world, including in our own country.”
Doggone it! In spite of her various assets, Hillary Clinton can't seem to abandon the tendency to strike out at those who are "deplorable" and "irredeemable," or even at those who "don't know very much at all."
Her husband tended to stress the best attributes of other groups. It doesn't mean that she's a bad person, but Hillary Clinton is perhaps a bit more "normal" than that.
In Spiers' view, it isn't just Clinton who has been kicking "a lot of young people" around. As she continues, she broadens her indictment:
I’ve taught students at the college level for 12 years, most recently at New York University’s journalism school. I’ve also seen and heard the assumptions made about them by some of their elders—administrators, parents and others. So it’s no surprise now to hear protesters described as “spoiled and entitled kids” or delicate “snowflakes” who cower in their safe spaces and don’t believe in free speech. Billionaires like Ken Griffin, Bill Ackman and, of course, Donald Trump—as entitled as anyone—have been particularly vocal in their disdain, calling the students in one instance “whiny” and demanding that they be punished for protesting. Representative Mike Lawler, a Republican from New York, even suggested that TikTok should be banned in part because “you’re seeing how these kids are being manipulated by certain groups or entities or countries to foment hate on their behalf and really create a hostile environment here in the U.S.”
Whether they realize it or not, Ms. Clinton, Mr. Lawler and the rest are engaging in a moral panic about America’s youth...
Spiers continues from there. It seems to us that she may be overlooking the unhelpful behaviors and the unwise assumptions put on display by many in the recent wave of student demonstrators.
That said, why are "younger people," writ large, more likely to express concern about conditions in Gaza than some of us Dear Boomers? As we said last fall, it may be because the younger people are better informed about horrible, long-standing conditions imposed on the people of Gaza.
"Teach your parents well," we advised at the time. Later in her column, Spiers touches on a key point:
In my experience, the stereotypes about today’s students are often ludicrously far from reality. College students of this generation have far more knowledge about complex world events than mine or Ms. Clinton’s did, thanks to the availability of the internet and a 24/7 news cycle fire-hosed directly into their phones. Representative Lawler may be correct that some portion of that information comes from clips on TikTok, and social media can be misleading, but there’s no evidence that college students are more likely to be misled by TikTok than people Mr. Lawler’s age and older are likely to be misled by Facebook.
We'd have to say that young people of the 1960s generation were often well informed about events and conditions in Vietnam. That said, we'll guess that These Younger People Today may know more about historical conditions in Gaza than do their elders, who came of age at a different time.
Are younger people more likely to side with the Gazans because they're actually better informed? The foolishness of some cadres to the side, we'd say that's highly possible.
Before we quit, we want to link you to Kevin Drum's recent post about current conditions in Gaza. What caused President Biden to change his mind about Israel's behavior in Gaza? In his post, Kevin offers a bitter assessment of what has been happening there:
Israel changed Joe Biden’s mind all by itself
[...]
What changed it were the grotesque actions of Israel itself. A campaign of indiscriminate bombing. The casual slaughter of thousands of civilians. Complete destruction of Gaza's buildings and infrastructure. The routine murder of journalists and aid workers. The forced starvation of Gaza's people. A plan to continue doing all this in Rafah with no apparent goal other than bloody revenge. And all of it without even a rhetorical pretense that Israel gives a shit about 21st century humanitarian concerns in the slightest way.
No one needs a bunch of protesters to draw their attention to any of this. It's all in broad daylight. Any decent person—and Joe Biden is a decent person—would be having second thoughts at the very least by this point.
In our view, Kevin's perceptions aren't crazy. Our guess would be that younger people, on balance, are more open to such perceptions than their elders may be at this time.
Spiers defends the actual student protesters. Some members of those relatively small cadres may not have shown the greatest judgement in the various ways they've proceeded.
Spiers stands for the actual protesters themselves. Making a slight adjustment, we'll stand for These Younger People, writ large.
Today's younger people don't all agree with each other about this topic, or about anything else. But once again, we'll offer this guess:
Many of those who voice concern about conditions in Gaza do so because they're better informed than their parents were or are. For the record, we don't offer any of this as an indictment of any large group, or of any particular individual.
We'll offer one final point, in which we'll side with Barack Obama:
Concerning the long-term failure to find a solution to conditions in Gaza, we'll blame the world community before we single Israel out.
Back in October, Obama said we're all to blame. Rueful assessments of that type are almost never wrong.
To me young people's (and President Biden's) ignorance of the history and current situation in the middle east is less significant than their arrogance. It's not unusual for people to have limited knowledge about a small countries many thousands of miles away. The significant part is that despite their lack of knowledge they think it's a good idea for them to direct the policies of that country.
ReplyDeleteBiden arrogantly sends weapons to Israel. He really must stop.
DeleteYou spew Nazi filth. You really should stop.
Delete
ReplyDelete"we'll blame the world community"
You're funny, Bob. It's your money - your money - that facilitate the ongoing genocide (not to mention decades of an ethnic cleansing that led to it), and you're blaming "the world community"? Nice. Most certainly you are a good decent person.
Yes, year after year, the US and EU provided money that facilitated Hamas's genocidal attacks on Jews. We and the EU give money and resources supposedly to help innocent Palestinian civilians. In reality, almost all the money was used by Hamas for war. The US and the EU know this, but turn a blind eye to reality.
DeleteIf those donating to the Palestinians made sure their gifts were used for peaceful purposes, there would be no Oct. 7, no war and no Palestinian and Israeli deaths.
food and medicine is generally used in peaceful ways, you fucking magat
DeleteDavid is a good decent person whose soul has been poisoned by Zionism. Try to be nice to him. Encourage him to revive his conscience.
DeleteWith Israel, there is an asymmetry: Jews, backed by antisemites in Western countries that wanted to purge their societies of Jews, came and displaced the indigenous inhabitants, brought European wealth and education (they initially thrived by becoming a world leader in producing oranges), and went about instituting a system of apartheid to deal with the ‘’natives”.
DeleteHistorically, Israeli violence against the indigenous Palestinians far exceeds the violent push back against the oppression perpetrated by Israeli Jews. Worse, in Gaza, Israel has gone about the business of murdering tens of thousands of innocent civilians, purely motivated by a revengeful urge to dominate. About half of those murdered are children.
Israel was not always so dominated by right wing religious fanatics. There was developing peace in the 90’s, but the leaders on both sides were assassinated, Netanyahu came to power, and he started a plan of funding the violent wing of Hamas, precisely to create the circumstances in which he could then engage in a genocide of the people he so hates.
There’s no credible evidence that money donated to aid Palestinians went to terrorists, that’s an Israeli created myth that has been debunked.
In reality, the funding of Hamas has been with the aid of Netanyahu.
In reality, it’s neither Boomers or college students that are ill informed, it is right wingers that cling to their misinformation, because it serves their undying need for domination.
Israel has been oppressed by Palestine since 1946. It is very unfair of the Western people to make too much of the war in Gaza, which is purely of a defensive nature. Much is made of expressions like "Death to Palestine" by some white apologists, to show the cruel character of Israel. The inference is drawn that they are impostors and frauds. This mode of propaganda is capable of being turned against them, you and all of us.
Delete@3:49 I often read about the amount of aid being donated to the Palestinians. It's described in a monetary figure. I never see so many tons of food and so many tons of medicine. So, I always assumed that they were donating money.
DeleteYour comment implies that these groups have not been donating money. Can you confirm that the US and EU, and also the united Nations, have not been contributing money to the Palestinians? That they have only contributed food and medicine?
Welcome to David from Cal propaganda hour.
Delete@5:20 The biggest asymmetry is obvious. Israel wants to live in peace with its neighbors,. but the Palestinians in Gaza want to murder every Jew in Israel and throughout the world. That's what the Hamas charter said. Hamas is the government of Gaza. If the Palestinians had a different attitude, then having a technologically advanced county next door could lead to enormous economic gains. The states that signed the Abraham Accords figured this out.
DeleteHamas has never changed its aspirations to wrest control of all of Israel by killing its Jews— a goal you will see clearly when you read the Hamas charter, as I did on Tuesday.
The first version of the charter, adopted in 1988, begins with a preamble. Only instead of “We-the-People,” it reads: “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”
The 36 articles that follow are buttressed by quotes from the Quran and lessons of the Prophet Muhammed … as interpreted by the militant Islamists of Hamas.
After establishing the primacy of Islam, the charter pivots to removing Jews from historic Palestine. “Nothing in nationalism is more significant or deeper than in the case when an enemy should tread Moslem land,” states Article 12.
The charter’s description of Jews echoes millennia of antisemitic tropes.
“With their money, they took control of the world media,” reads Article 22, “news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others.”
The 9000-word document blames Jews for the French and Communist revolutions, World War I and II, and for the Rotary Club and the United Nations, “to enable them to rule the world through them.”
“There is no war going on anywhere,” it reads, “without having their finger in it.”
The charter directs the killing of Jews, drawing on a hadith (prophetic saying): “The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: ‘O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.’”
In 2017, Hamas issued a revised charter, which softens its Islamist rhetoric somewhat. While maintaining the right to Palestine “from the river to the sea,” this new version accepts the idea of a Palestinian state in territories occupied by Israel since the 1967 War — the so-called two-state solution."
https://forward.com/opinion/564190/hamas-charter-truth/
The charter says Hamas has no conflict with Jews.
DeleteSaying Palestinians in Gaza want to murder every Jew in Israel and throughout the world is total bullshit.
DeleteWelcome to the David in Cal total bullshit hour. With your host - the full of shit, dickhead old man, bullshit aetist ... David in Cal!!!!
Delete@DiC: "So, I always assumed..."
DeleteYeah. Don't do that.
David DePape has been sentenced to thirty years.
ReplyDeleteThe world community? How about the leading power in the world, our very own USA? We’ve been underwriting Israel’s crimes for decades. Let’s stop it right now.
ReplyDeleteBrent Bozell III has been sentenced to three years and nine months.
ReplyDeleteThanks for noting that, this remarkable story has been buried.
DeleteClinton understands this: https://www.thefp.com/p/the-rise-of-the-never-bidens?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
ReplyDeleteThe latest polls indicate that Biden is losing support due to acquiescing to Israel.
ReplyDeleteBiden has responded, and is starting to shift his policy on Israel.
Those polls do not show an increase in support for Trump, and in the end, those voters not currently endorsing Biden, will wind up voting for Biden, since the alternative is so much worse.
Trump is broadly considered the worst president in modern times and one of the worst of all time, primarily because he is so corrupt.
It always sounds ridiculous when Somerby generalizes about Bill Clinton's personality based on a sentence or two about the Pentecostals he met (when he was in high school) in his autobiography, My Life. And then he generalizes about Hillary Clinton's supposedly different personality based on a few remarks she made about Trump supporters during his campaign against him. Neither of these excerpts justifies the characterizations Somerby has made today about them being different from each other or from anyone else. And Somerby is the last person on earth who should be summarizing people's personalities, based on his lack of knowledge of psychology.
ReplyDeleteFor one thing, personality is defined as a habitual way of dealing with the world that transcends situations over time. That means you cannot summarize personality on the basis of one incident, as Somerby has done here today.
"Doggone it! In spite of her various assets, Hillary Clinton can't seem to abandon the tendency to strike out at those who are "deplorable" and "irredeemable," or even at those who "don't know very much at all."
ReplyDeleteSomerby criticizes Clinton for saying that today's protesters are ignorant of history. Why cannot this be a simple factual statement from someone who does know a lot about that history? And it isn't as if Clinton weren't being asked her opinion.
Somerby doesn't like Hillary much. He never misses an opportunity himself to strike out at her for innocuous things, even while saying he voted for her. She, of course, is not running for anything now, but Somerby doesn't think her opinion as a former Secretary of State matters in this situation where students are expressing opinions about foreign relations. I guess Somerby thinks she should confine her remarks to praising the students.
DeleteFeminists might call this an example of the unreasonable expectation that women should be nice. I think it is more personal for Somerby, who doesn't bother telling us whatever other wise things she might have had to say.
Clinton is quoted as saying: "“I have had many conversations, as you have had, with a lot of young people over the last many months,” she said." Somerby cannot say she doesn't know what she is talking about, so he says she is mean instead. Heaven forbid he should listen to what she said, but Somerby himself has defended the students, so I doubt he wants to hear that they are often ignorant and have been propagandized.
"For the record, we don't offer any of this as an indictment of any large group, or of any particular individual."
ReplyDeleteWho then does Somerby intend his statement to apply to?
Remember the scene in Fiddler on the Roof where two men are arguing and one man appeals to Tevye who says "You're right," and then the other appeals to him and he says "You're right too. And then a third man says "They can't both be right," and Tevye says "You're right, too."
ReplyDeleteSomerby says: "Back in October, Obama said we're all to blame. Rueful assessments of that type are almost never wrong.
Assessments of that type remind me of Tevye's attempt to make everyone right (and no one wrong). If we are all to blame then no one is to blame. That is a kind of temporizing of the type that people do to avoid conflict.
When Somerby says this kind of statement is almost never wrong, he isn't thinking clearly. Why are the people who have the power to resolve a conflict less responsible for doing so than the rest of the world, much of which can do nothing at all to change the situation? Platitudes don't solve problems. They make people feel good. And they get someone asked his opinion, off the hook, so he doesn't have to say anything unpleasant that might upset others.
This illustrates the entire problem with Obama's administration. A president who cannot stand having anyone mad at him, isn't going to be effective at dealing with heated crises. Thank God Biden is not worrying about his favorability ratings and instead focusing on how to stop the fighting.
Anonymouse 6:51pm, after the Hamas attack on Israelis, I argued that Obama’s remark about everyone having dirty hands was sheer speciousness.
DeleteBoy howdy.
Anonymouse 6:40pm so is Mrs. Clinton (rhetorically subjugated by sexist Bob) right that the Biden’s policy changes suck?
DeleteSomebody tell HUGE Clinton fan, Cecelia, before she explodes from the excitement!
DeleteThe question goes begging: ARE there any terms in which Hillary Clinton would be allowed to critique others that Bob would find acceptable? Also, is Bob flying old glory upside down at his house?
ReplyDeleteAnonymouse 7:26pm, so your terms are that Bob can’t argue what he’s said about the attack from jump because HRC is woman?
DeleteLet me spell it out for you: Bob is very much on the sexist train when he joins with righties in wetting his pants over”deplorable” , when She was describing people who are indeed deplorable, the people who would stab the US in the back on Jan 6. Bob himself, who was “unimpressed” with the Jan 6 committee, might as well join those who treat those deplorable scumbags as heroes.
DeleteAnonymouse 7:43pm, so your argument is that Bob is being sexist in contradicting Clinton, even though his sentiments are consistent from Oct 7, 2023?
DeleteTry harder.
Bob has consistently stated that Right-wingers are pieces of shit. Who could argue with him?
Delete"Right-wingers are pieces of shit" is a factual assertion. It can be confirmed or refuted by scientific investigation.
DeleteI’m finally tired of Hillary. I no longer care what she thinks.
ReplyDeleteAnonymouse 7:48pm, oh, good. Anyone who felt that way much earlier can sleep a bit easier knowing that you’re no longer there to call them a sexist for it.
DeleteWe don't say "sexist" any more. It's "misogynist" now.
Delete🙄
DeleteSexist and misogynist are two different words with different meanings:
Deletesexism: sexism refers to a belief in traditional gender role stereotypes and in the inherent inequality between men and women, characterized by or showing prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. There is benign sexism, which holds positive stereotypes and believes it is working for the benefit of women, and hostile sexism, which holds negative attitudes and emotions toward women and results in hostile behavior toward them.
misogynist: Misogyny has taken shape in multiple forms such as male privilege, patriarchy, gender discrimination, sexual harassment, belittling of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification. A misogynist is someone who supports a patriarchal system in which male supremacy and privilege are institutionalized and various forms of sexism are used to support and maintain that system.
Which term you use depends on what you are talking about.
I'm talking about Hillary. Am I a sexist or a misogynist?
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ReplyDeleteHow in the world do critics of Israel manage to ignore Hamas's stated desire to eradicate Jews? I'm talking about people like Biden and Blinken and on down? Are they blinded by antisemitism? I don't think so. Are they blinded by an "oppressor-oppressed" view of the world? Maybe. Are they blinded by a desire to get a middle eastern peace treaty with their name on it? Maybe. Are they only concerned with the impact on American elections? I don't know.
ReplyDeleteI seldom if ever see people argue that Hamas doesn't want to eradicate Jews. That fact is simply not mentioned in discussions of the problem. Can anyone here explain how and why this basic fact is ignored?
Anyone who criticizes ObamaCare is anti-American.
DeleteTry to deny it, but we know it's true.
I can explain why it's ignored. Because it's not a basic fact.
Delete@DiC:
Delete"How in the world do critics of Israel manage to ignore Hamas's stated desire to eradicate Jews?"
They don't ignore it. They often mention it.
Joe Biden on 20 October 2023:
"The terrorist group Hamas unleashed pure, unadulterated evil in the world. But sadly, the Jewish people know, perhaps better than anyone, that there is no limit to the depravity of people when they want to inflict pain on others. "
Biden on 10 October 2023:
"The people of Israel lived through one such moment this weekend. The bloody hands of the terrorist organization Hamas — a group whose stated purpose for being is to kill Jews."
Biden in 2024 SOTU: “Israel has a right to go after Hamas, Hamas could end the conflict by releasing the hostages, laying down arms, and surrendering those responsible for Oct. 7.”
Blinken on 23 November 2023 (in Israel, his fourth visit following October 7): "Hamas doesn’t care one second or one iota for the welfare, for the well-being, of the Palestinian people. It cynically and monstrously uses them as human shields, putting its commanders in command posts, its weapons and ammunition within or beneath residential buildings, schools, mosques, hospitals."
But do go on.
Under no circumstances will DIC ever let facts get in the way of the narrative he regurgitates from a diet exclusively limited to feeding off right wing media outlets. Textbook definition of a troll.
Delete"Textbook definition of a troll."
DeleteThis is true as the above is a loaded comment full of loaded questions and circular reasoning. It's dishonest, manipulative and makes an honest or thoughtful dialogue impossible. It's a dick move.
In another life, a younger man, likewise enamored with the reformed Hamas supporter Netanyahu, would pack up his bags for the greener pastures of the West Bank settlements. There he could take pot shots at Palestinian farmers, vandalize their properties, and if successful drive them from their homes. But that is what dreams are made of.
DeleteI keep telling Dave to make Aliyah, and he keeps ignoring me.
DeleteBiden and Blinken haven't criticized Israel, they've criticized the Netanyahu government. Maybe that's what David in Cal meant.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI can’t speak for the others, but I am an idiot.
ReplyDeleteThis was a tawdry affair on Trump's part, totally known and recognized by humans everywhere. Yet Somerby pretends it is unknowable, a mystery, a question mark. Does anyone not know what happened? Does anyone really think Mr. Grab'em by the pussy" was framed? So why is Somerby insisting on precise language of uncertainty? For political purposes, to maintain Trump's fake facade, to let him yell at the media and claim Trump is being railroaded -- an innocent man. If true, this would be the first and only thing Trump is innocent of doing. Who does Somerby think he is fooling with this pose? Not even his own trolls.
ReplyDeleteHillary Clinton is a hateful, bitter, and vindictive Democrat. Bill Clinton has his failings but those traits aren't among them.
ReplyDelete