How dumb is our American discourse?

FRIDAY, AUGUST 30, 2024

But also, how vulgar and crass?  In our view, the New York Times has taken a major step in the right direction with a lengthy, detailed report by Bensinger, Yourish and Gold. 

It starts to go where the rubber is meeting the road. Its dual headline says this:

Trump Keeps Turning Up the Dial on Vulgarity. Will He Alienate the Voters He Needs?
Donald J. Trump has been reposting racially and sexually charged insults of Kamala Harris, continuing a history of crass attacks.

In the lengthy, detailed report, the three reporters describe the vulgar and crass, racially and sexually charged insults which that candidate relentlessly traffics. This kind of reporting has been long overdue. 

Yesterday, the Times report appeared online; it hasn't yet appeared in print editions. We hope it appears on the Times front page this Sunday morning. The report describes a major change in the moral and intellectual content of American political life.

As part of this same descent, Candidate Vance recently told a crowd at a campaign event that Candidate Harris "can go to Hell." The Washington Post asked Vance if he thinks this kind of language is appropriate.

At that point, The Dumbness comes in! Headline included, here's how the Post's subsequent news report starts:

Vance defends telling Harris to ‘go to hell’ for nonexistent cemetery criticism

Former president Donald Trump’s running mate, Sen. JD Vance of Ohio, doubled down Wednesday on telling Vice President Kamala Harris to “go to hell,” falsely repeating that she had feigned outrage over an altercation between Trump’s campaign and an Arlington cemetery worker when she had not.

In an interview with The Washington Post, Vance defended his attack on Harris—saying “go to hell” is “a colloquial phrase”—and tied it to broader criticism of the administration’s handling of an Islamic State attack that killed 13 U.S. troops during the August 2021 withdrawal from Afghanistan.

“Don’t focus on Donald Trump showing up to grieve with some people who lost their children. Focus on your own job. Don’t do this fake outrage thing. If Kamala Harris was really outraged about what happened, then she would do her job differently, start a real investigation, and fire some of the people who are involved.”

Sad! Vance had told Harris to "go to Hell" for voicing outrage about the incident at the Arlington National Cemetery—as the Post report explains in detail. for something she hasn't done. 

We'd call that a tiny bit crass. Concerning the dumbness quotient, look again at that third paragraph:

Vance is wondering why Harris doesn't "start an investigation," then "fire some of the people who were involved" in the withdrawal from Afghanistan. 

Question! Would some such investigation show that someone should be fired? “Sentence first, verdict afterward,” as the Queen of Hearts once said.

A bit of Wonderland lurks in that statement. In the main, the dumbness to which we refer enters the picture here:

On what basis could Candidate Harris decide to launch an investigation, then start firing people? It's as we've been noting in the past few weeks:

Amazingly, people like Vance seem to think that vice presidents are the people who are in charge inside an American White House.

This may seem like a minor point—but on its face, the dumbness here is undisguised. As we've noted, the peculiar idea that Harris can do whatever she wants, and has been in charge for the past three years, has been driving the discourse among Fox News pundits for the past month, morning, noon and night.

That framework is very, very dumb. Here's the question we would ask:

Why doesn't Candidate Vance start an investigation, then start firing people? The answer to that is amazingly simple:

Whatever the merits of that suggestion might be, Candidate Vance doesn't possess that authority to do some such thing. But then again, neither does Vice President Harris!

That specific brand of dumbness has been ruling the airwaves at Fox. Regarding the crass and vulgar behavior of one of the two major candidates, the Times has finally decided to treat that behavior as actual news, which is what it quite plainly is.

We hope their report appears on page one. When it does, or perhaps if it doesn't, we'll show you what the three Times reporters have said.


46 comments:

  1. Trump and his cohort have mastered the Bannon technique of "flooding the zone." They say stupid stuff and when they're called on it, they double down. Then they say two other stupid things. Very quickly, there are too many bits of stupid floating around to debate. The press and the public move on while the stupid statement becomes received wisdom among Trumpists on social media.

    I guess that's how a "super-persuader" does it.

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    1. In a related development, the RNC chair says "the president can tell stories at any time."

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    2. And Comey was pro Trump so when Anthony Weiner was caught texting a teenager a month before the election, he had the FBI seize his laptop that had Clinton emails on it and right before the election announced to the public the FBI was investigating the emails and that swung the election in Trump's favor and was the reason Trump won but despite his love of Trump he began investigating him for collusion with Russia and got fired.

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    3. so when Anthony Weiner was caught texting a teenager a month before the election,

      You're completely full of shit. Go back to square and try again.

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    4. Sorry, you're right. It was two months before the election that Weiner was caught texting a teenager which led to an FBI probe that Comey announced right before the election which swayed the entire election in Trump's favor as Comey designed even though four months after that Trump thanked him for his work by firing him.

      "Eleven days before the 2016 presidential election, FBI Director James Comey announced that the FBI discovered emails possibly “pertinent” to the Clinton email server probe “in connection with an unrelated case.”

      "That unrelated case was New York prosecutors’ separate investigation into allegations that Weiner – a former New York congressman and the estranged husband of Abedin – had allegedly sexted with an underage girl."

      August 29, 2016: Abedin announces separation from Weiner after new reports surfaced that he sent sexually suggestive photos again.

      https://www.cnn.com/2016/12/20/politics/hillary-clinton-anthony-weiner-fbi-search-warrant-unsealed/index.html

      https://www.cnn.com/2016/08/30/politics/weiner-scandal-timeline/index.html

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    5. The FBI knew about those emails on Weiner's laptop
      months before they went to Comey. SDNY had already spilled the info to the Trump team. This is the memorable instance of Rudy Guiliani doing his cat-that-swallowed-the-canary routine hinting about something big that was about to drop on Hillary's head. Naturally, the investigation into the
      SDNY and who illegally gave that information to Rudy was quietly forgotten to death.

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    6. Probably the first time you've ever even heard of it, 8:13. Propagandists convinced you it was over something else and you are too stupid and lazy to research it yourself.

      Ever feel like you've been cheated?

      It's no wonder you hate yourself so deeply.

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    7. Images of Weiner’s penis were telecommunicated to the teenager which prompted the investigation that found Clinton emails that Comey used to destroy Hillary Clinton‘s political career since American voters changed their mind about voting for her based on the revelation regarding the emails that where found in the telecommunicated penis investigation.

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    8. "since American voters changed their mind about voting for her based on the revelation regarding the emails." Another straw man by our fiery leftist. No one is claiming that "American voters" en masse were swayed by what Comey did. The claim is that the election was decided by so few votes in just a few states, that the massive amount of negative headlines generated by Comey's actions so close to election day (the NY Times alone ran dozens of front-page articles about it in the final two weeks) were enough to impact a few thousand votes in a few key places. And it need not be the case that some Clinton supporters suddenly switched to Trump (unlikely). More likely it affected "undecideds" and/or people who were weakly leaning toward Clinton but then either got discouraged and stayed home or voted third party instead:

      https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/1/11/14215930/comey-email-election-clinton-campaign

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    9. And just for the record, the people who think Comey's decision probably changed the election outcome do not necessarily think Comey did it to hurt Clinton. He has explained why he did it, and I believe him. He felt enormous pressure to get ahead of the story, so that if Clinton won (which he and everyone else assumed was a given), it wouldn't look like he and the FBI had suppressed the story to advantage Clinton, which would have fed into the right's anti-FBI conspiratorial bullshit.

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    10. Nine days before the election, undecided voters in swing states were glued to media coverage about the candidates, reading story after story in The New York Times. Yet, they still could not decide whom to vote for. Despite reading months of coverage, none of the articles tipped the scales.

      Then it happened. The husband of a Clinton aide sent pictures of his penis. Authorities found these images on a laptop, but there was more—emails. Clinton emails. The authorities reopened an investigation into Clinton over the emails. Like any good FBI Director would, Comey announced the reopening of the investigation eight days before the election.

      The election was a week away. Undecided voters in swing states, as was their habit, scoured The New York Times for information. When they opened the paper that morning, they saw it: images of a penis had triggered the reopening of an investigation. This news pushed the undecided swing-state voters over the edge. Penis pictures had been sent. An investigation was reopened. That was the final straw for them. There was no way they could vote for a candidate who had an investigation about emails reopened based on penis pictures being sent to a minor. Their decision was finally made.

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    11. Luckily, Google Trends can be sorted by geography and date and this hypothesis can be easily checked!!

      ;)

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    12. 5:12 AM: Good morning. You're an ass.

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    13. Comey ruined Clinton's chances. He sent a vague 166-word statement to Congress 11 days before the election. He said agents had discovered new emails that might be relevant to the investigation into Hillary Clinton’s private server.

      Undecided voters in swing states were appalled by this news. They gazed in horror at their New York Times. Agents were going to review the new emails. Given this news, how could they vote for Clinton now? Sure, they had remained undecided after the FBI had seemingly closed the case in July. But now it was open again and their decision was made.

      The significant media coverage generated by Comey's announcement that agents would be looking into some emails had made their decision for them. They would not be voting for Clinton. The articles they read had influenced them. These voters ignored the significant media coverage criticizing Comey for meddling in politics that were right next to the ones about his reopening, but that was because they were racists.

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    14. good morning, 8:55: You remain an ass.

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    15. Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey Comey

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    19. Wow. That's a lot of mis-spellings of "Dobbs".

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    20. Hilarious. Our fiery leftist can't stand being corrected so little baby throws a temper tantrum. And isn't it ironic that they get so outraged about the slightest (supposed) infringement on free speech, and yet here they are interfering with speech on this board?
      Btw, their replies above about NY Times, etc. contain a bunch of reasoning errors as usual (no one said that undecided voters were influenced directly by the NY Times, for example. The NY Times is a huge influence on OTHER media outlets, which then "trickles down" to social media, especially when a story dominates NY Times coverage like the Comey story did).
      Anyone who is interested in the evidence supporting the claim that Comey's decision impacted the election should read the following article:

      https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/1/11/14215930/comey-email-election-clinton-campaign

      Here's the intro:
      4 pieces of evidence showing FBI Director James Comey cost Clinton the election
      Donald Trump has called his election a historic landslide, but it was anything but. Only two other presidents have been elected with smaller popular vote margins since records began in 1824. His edge in the Electoral College, while decisive, depends on less than 80,000 votes across three states (Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania) out of more than 135 million cast nationwide. It was a very close election.

      In a close election, there are a million reasons “why” it was close. Trump’s popularity with working-class whites. Turnout among the Democratic base. Campaign malpractice in the Midwest. Jill Stein. Millennials. Most are probably true in the sense they could move enough votes.

      The Clinton campaign, however, has centered its why-we-lost narrative on the “Comey effect,” along with another outside factor, Russia’s hacking of DNC and Clinton campaign email accounts. The “Comey effect” refers to the impact of FBI Director James Comey’s October 28 letter to the House Judiciary Committee announcing the discovery new emails that appeared pertinent to their closed investigation of Clinton and his subsequent letter on November 6 that absolved Clinton (after millions of votes had already been cast early).

      Many people — most notably Trump and other Republicans — have scoffed at the claim that the letter changed the outcome of the election, suggesting that it’s a convenient excuse for a weak candidate who made some questionable strategic decisions.

      But the Comey effect was real, it was big, and it probably cost Clinton the election. Below, we present four pieces of evidence demonstrating that this is the case.

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    21. Oh, great. That serial killer is back.

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  2. What the what?

    Look what Molly Jong-Fast did:

    Donald Trump began pressing Vice President Kamala Harris to do an interview with the press, which then led the press to begin demanding that she do interviews, reporter Molly Jong-Fast said while speaking on an MSNBC panel on Friday. What unfolded, however, was a "gift" for Harris, the panel agreed.

    Speaking Friday to host Joy Reid, Jong-Fast said that too often, Trump serves as the "assignment editor" for the media and it works against them.

    Meanwhile, "people don't look at him critically at all in the media, which I think is surprising considering his long list of lies and untruths," she said.

    [...]

    She said that CNN likely workshopped the questions among the staff, and she couldn't understand out of the 10 questions, there were four about things Trump said about her.

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    1. Reasoning error: The media didn't need Trump to begin demanding that she do interviews. That's an overt and blatant reasoning error which is a sign of propaganda. I would look into who this Jong-Fast person is and where their bread is buttered so to speak. Isn't it offensive to you that someone would try to put one over on you like that? Something as illogical and far fetched as asking you to believe the media needed Trump to begin demanding that she do interviews?? That is a misrepresentation worthy of a school-boy on a playground. I hope you can see how offensive that is. Did you really fall for it or are you participating in the grift?

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    2. "I would look into who this Jong-Fast person is and where their bread is buttered so to speak."

      You don't know? Then why are you here commenting on what she said?

      Shoo!

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    3. Talk about reasoning errors . . .
      "The media didn't need Trump to begin demanding that she do interviews."
      Straw man. No one claimed the media "needed" Trump's prompting. She claimed Trump "led" them to begin demanding Harris sit for an interview. This doesn't rule out that they would have done so eventually anyway.
      "That's an overt and blatant reasoning error which is a sign of propaganda."
      Reasoning errors happen all the time, for a variety of reasons, most of which have nothing to do with propaganda. So they might be a sign or propaganda, or they might, for example, be a sign that emotion or mental habit or bias is interfering with a person's ability to reason clearly. When you reason poorly (which you do frequently on here), is it a sign of propaganda? (Actually, in your case, it is.)
      "I would look into who this Jong-Fast person is and where their bread is buttered so to speak. Isn't it offensive to you that someone would try to put one over on you like that?"
      More reasoning errors - jumping to unfounded conclusions - that she said what she said because of "where [her] bread is buttered" and that she was trying "to put one over on you." You have no idea if that's what Jong-Fast was doing. Maybe she was giving her honest opinion. It is obviously the case that Trump "led" Dana Bash to bring up that ridiculous question of whether Harris just recently started identifying as Black. There were other examples she mentioned as well. So maybe she came by her opinion honestly about how Trump is influencing the press.
      "That is a misrepresentation worthy of a school-boy on a playground. I hope you can see how offensive that is. Did you really fall for it or are you participating in the grift?" These are just versions of the ad-hominem fallacy. They're basically just insults, implying that QIB naively "[fell] for it" and that what he fell for was as unsophisticated as what a "school boy" would say on the "playground." Kind of like all of those times you fell for anti-Dem propaganda -- for example that the war in Gaza is a genocide, that Kamala Harris is an alcoholic, and that the people on college campuses protesting the war in Gaza were completely, totally, 100%, categorically, without exception ALL current students on those campuses.

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  3. Bob has shifted from considering Biden-Harris as a unified political team to the point where questions as to her future policies could be ascertained by referring to Biden’s current policies, to now saying she is just the VP.

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    1. Her policies might be discerned, but as Vice President, she has no authority to start investigations and fire people, as Vance stupidly demands. Surely you see the difference?

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    2. Anonymouse 6:24pm, wouldn’t the assumption be that she’s part of an administration that could have taken action on particular things, and could certainly articulate an intent to look into it now?

      Is the argument that she’s only around to take bows for successes and not address any failures?

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    3. No, Vance demanded that she “do her job”, except that doesn’t include starting investigations and firing people.

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    4. Anonymouse 6:41pm, it’s Harris’s job right now to say what she will and won’t do. If Mike Pence was running for president no would blink an eye if Harris or Walz demanded to know how the hell he stayed silent about such and such and what the hell he planned to do now.

      This argument of Bob’s is utterly specious.

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    5. In this post, Bob's argument is that Harris lacks, or lacked, the authority to investigate why 13 soldiers died in an attack during the exit from Afghanistan.

      He is almost certainly right about that, since Biden would have opposed such a review, so she would have had to conduct it in defiance of the POTUS.

      As for how Harris stayed silent about this or that, I'm not recallng a single vice-president ever speaking out against their administration's policies in any significant way, as the hypothetical question supposes they might.

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    6. Hector, all that is really beside the point and it’s a game to pretend otherwise.

      This isn’t a high school debate club or a campaign for president of the garden club.

      We all know perfectly well that such rhetoric is routine in political campaigns and would not turn a hair on any Democrat’s head if what Vance demanded was asked of Pence or Cheney had either of them run for office.

      The impetus is to get a response and to hold VP’s accountable for what happened in an administration where we assume they weren’t in the bathroom during policy meetings with the president. There’s no hesitancy in giving credit to Comma La (or any VP running for the presidency) for sucessrs.

      The rhetoric goes both ways. Certainly in the demand to account for failures. It’s typical political speech and it’s a way of demanding accountability. It’s crap to act as though it’s unreasonable.

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    7. Republicans love to ride the corpses of servicemen killed during a Democratic administration. It is Benghazi redux. Democrats don't play that punk game, though maybe they should start playing.

      Do you know how many servicemen were killed in Afghanistan total during Trump's four years in office and who was fired by his administration? That is before Trump made a deal with the Taliban and released 5000 war prisoners in the waning months of his term? Go fuck yourself, Cecelia.

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    8. Anonymouse 8:04pm, that would be more effective coming out of Comma La’s mouth to Vance than it is yours.

      To highlight just how thoroughly you’ve illustrated my argument is the fact that you hold me, a voter, accountable for the political policy of my candidates. You do this in argument that is premised upon the notion that it’s unfair to do the same to a VP.

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    9. I can't read your gibberish now, Cecelia. We have seen this act before. Republicans love to ride the corpses of servicemen killed during a Democratic administration. It's what they do and are doing, even as the orange rump pisses on the graves of fallen heroes and fucking bullshits his way through it once again, while campaign TikTok videos gets millions of views of him pretending he is the president. t

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    10. Cecilia,

      Your point is that it's part of the rules of the game as it's now played to try to hold Harris accountable for alleged mistakes made by the Biden admin.

      I agree. It is part of the rules of the game.

      Bob is simply saying this rule makes little sense when it's applied to issues where there is no evidence of Harris' particular involvement.

      He's thinking logically about what should be rather than about what is.

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    11. Hector, she’s involved by virtue of being the vice president. If she were out getting manicures during Oval Office conferences, she would still be involved (2nd in command of the USA) by virtue of her job status.

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    12. We all remember how central to GHWB's presidency Dan Quayle was.

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    13. Anonymouse 8:43pm, you would have assured the world of that had Quayle ever run for the president.

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    14. Being the backup to the president is more like an understudy than a 2nd in command. The president’s Chief of Staff is the executive officer, not the VP.

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    15. Anonymouse 8:52pm, it’s several months till Nov. You’ll see your post and others like it quoted back to you.

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    16. Junior Bush who was actually the president allowed the World Trade Center to be leveled and you guys decided to re-elect the fucking moron. LOL Yeah, your sincerity just drips off of you Cec.

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  4. "Amazingly, people like Vance seem to think that vice presidents are the people who are in charge inside an American White House."

    Amazingly, Somerby's already forgotten about Vice President Cheney.

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    1. The exception that proves the rule.

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    2. The President of Russia was in charge of the American White House from Noon, January 20, 2017 to Noon, January 20, 2021.

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